Some of our most fun times were when it wouldn’t stay down
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I couldn’t agree more. Mary was definitely from the “Copacabanya” school of vocal artistry. She had a wonderful, but extremely limited vocal quality that took 20 years to develop into something more marketable. Even with all the leads, she did in the 70s, she didn’t grow as a performer. When she finally realized where her strengths lay, She became A credible soloist, but still with a very limited appeal. Her most loyal fans, like most loyal fans, can’t see past their love for her to see her weaknesses that kept her from solo stardom. I don’t think it’s necessarily true that Motown didn’t like Mary as much as they were probably just not impressed, and certainly not interested in developing, her talent. It might be that Gordy didn’t care for Mary. I’ve always had that impression.
Gordy saw the potential in diana ross from the beginning. She didn’t become an 80-year-old icon by happenstance. Her natural charisma, style and star power could not be taught, copied or learned. She also took advantage of every opportunity possible, as you mentioned. But she made good on them.
As an outside observer, Mary was hard to like after Diana left the group. She knew her place, but often refused to accept it. Everything was exaggerated to the hilt. IMHO, her talent and performances were utterly average. I remember running to move the needle off the record when I Can’t Take Amy Eyes Off You was ready to play. I hated that Motown put it on a DRATS album, thus spoiling it.
I have a different perspective since I became a fan in 1970 when Jean started with the Supremes and Diana Ross was a soloist. I liked them both for different reasons.
I was drawn in with Jean's voice but was unimpressed with her television appearances. She changed her vocal approach with the Touch LP which had a different sound than the Supremes, more full bodied and less driven by a danceable sound. She rebounded with Floy Joy, aided by Mary. Then with Jimmy Webb, she sounded shrill. I had a friend watch a You Tube video of JML doing Bad Weather and they stated that Mary seemed to be trying so hard to garner excitement but they felt this trio did not have "it". They called Jean "that nasal thing" and wondered who Lynda was saying they felt she didn't add anything to it like Flo and Cindy did. Their opinion not mine and they only know the Supremes very marginally.
I always like Diana Ross although she could be too over the top and too theatrical in look and performance. I never really judged her as a Supreme because that was before my time. She may be an icon but somehow the media and general public don't seem to be as crazy for her as say they go for Streisand, Cher or the like. She has a distinctive, pliable voice but it is very thin.
I have always liked Mary Wilson's voice and look but am well aware she has shortcomings. I think all of the group had talent but they all have shortcomings, even Ross but no one points to others, only Wilson. Mary's voice was deep and not a soprano and that was needed for the sound and it has a great deal of warmth to it. I figure Motown didn't like her because her voice didn't lend itself as easily to the danceable Motown sound. Still, she could have been Motown's female balladeer. Diana's voice could be weak, Flo was too loud and unstable, Mary had limitations. None were perfect. Lots of fans and general public wanted them all to sound like Ross but as a group that would have been horrible. Imagine a trio of Diana Ross, Jean Terrell and Susaye Greene. :confused:
Yes, Motown did not like Mary's sound but many fans wanted her to sound like Diana because they liked her and her voice. I accept that as much as the fact that I accept liking Mary's voice and talent as well.
No, not Margo Channing as Margo was already an established star. I'd say, going outside of All About Eve, Lora Meredith in that scene early in Imitation of Life when she's outraged when the agent says if she has to eat and sleep with the Dramatist Club to get ahead and she storms out of the office and goes home to have a big cry. But Flo is only like that version of Lora. Not the one later who after first taste of Broadway success entices the playwright to always write comedies for her and over the next 10 years becomes a self absorbed diva. That Lora is more like Miss Ross after years of stardom. I could see Lora writing an autobiography along the lines of Secrets of a Sparrow.
I think the powers that be at Motown didn’t care for Mary because of the following reasons.
1. When Gordy was trying to find out who was driving the station wagon, Mary lied to him. He may have felt she was not trustworthy after that. There would be future instances where he may be looking at her with a jaundiced eye.
2. it’s well-known Her tardiness was a major thorn in the side of artist development and those working on their act. Mary’s tardiness never improved much.
3. I’ve always suspected that Gordy was aware that not all was how it appeared as far as the dynamic of DMF. It’s widely suspected that mary was playing both sides against the middle for quite a while and that would not have helped her stock with Gordy. Cindy talk to me several times about the power play She stepped into when she joined the group. And that was all Mary. It may be they were aware of that and other antagonisms.
4. Her behavior at the farewell concert was inexcusable. Deke Richards told me the amount of work required to salvage some of those songs because of mary’s behavior. That would not have entered her to anyone at the company. I also think it helps. Explain Gordy‘s anger after the show. In the morning phone call.
5. They never cared for her voice, it seems. And refusing to let her sing lead in an emergency, underscores that fact. Her decision to increase her role in lead singing in the 70s might not have been popular.
6. Turning over the management of the group to Pedro may have seemed like a stupid amateur thing to do, which it was. It’s unlikely she garnered any respect for that move.
I don’t think they saw any value with her whatsoever, other than as a pretty background singer. There would be no reason to not develop her if they thought she was good. Or, sign her up and develop her after ross left the company. I don’t blame her for feeling that she was underappreciated, because she was right or wrong, if there is a right or wrong in this case, they did seem to not appreciate her.
A few corrections...
2.) Yes, she was tardy but it never showed in her work. For all the talk that she was late to things, she never missed her mark. Diana even said that Mary kept her on her toes. She may have been late, but she was no slouch. The woman was on her game.
4.) Not sure what Deke was remembering, but the Farewell album we hear is the last show. It wasn't the highly edited show with pieces and parts from other nights he has said it was. There were edits to the Aquarius/Let The Sunshine In medley because some celebrities didn't want to be featured on the album and maybe that's what he remembered in terms of the amount of hours and work of editing but the things we hear on the album are from the last night and the things we hear Mary saying are what was there that night. The ladies clearly had champagne before the show and were just letting things flow, but nothing comes close to being out of line, unprofessional or inexcusable.
but the topic of conversation is not if mary was good at her job or not it is why Motown did not like her. And the unprofessionalism of keeping people waiting and waiting and waiting is enough to piss people off. And that’s in any profession, and it doesn’t matter how good someone is. Read about the making of the Judy Garland show. Are anybody that worked with her the ladder years especially. People do not like waiting and it makes them not like someone they might otherwise like.. There’s no excuse for this. It’s just simply a fact.
I don’t know why would make up such a total, a lengthy lie about the farewell show. But he told her to more people than just me. What is your source that unequivocably that the released farewell album was only from the last show? I think I’m going to need at least some convincing because Deek didn’t just mention this, we had a pretty lengthy conversation about it because of course it was great dirt and I was asking a lot of questions. For a guy who is making up the story he sure had a lot of answers ready. And if you look at the picture of them in the booth after the show on January 14, Mary is raising her glass and diana is directing her glass away from her as if she might be afraid it might spill on her. That’s how it looks to me . Or at least looks like it could be that. And I’ve said this before but, I don’t know one person, who either personally heard, or knows anyone who heard mary ever express happiness for any of diana ross’s solo successes. I think Mary‘s feelings got the best of her that night.
but I think all of this discussion might also be backwards. I think the question should be, “why would Motown like mary wilson?”
if by the word like we are meaning, appreciating and nurturing and marketing the talent of mary wilson…
Some folks act as if Motown somehow owed Mary or anyone at Motown something. record, Companies are notoriously callous. They are not living things. They don’t have hearts or feelings or consciousness or anything. They have a balance sheet. Motown was a business, and they didn’t see a good investment in her. It was nothing personal, like any business they would invest in what they thought they could make a nickel on. on top of that, there may have been personal feelings, one way or another at the upper echelon, actually believe there was that. But, either way, they would’ve exploited her if they felt it was worth their while. I think that, we as supreme fans, naturally want to see the people that have brought us so much pleasure do well, and it might cloud our judgment as far as the commercial viability of a certain act or a certain record.
when I read threads about the viability of red hot, for example, it makes me wonder what’s going on at the Tommy Boyce and Bobby hart page, Terry jacks page, etc., There’s usually a good reason why a record doesn’t hit and I don’t believe it’s because of promotion for the most part. And that includes 99% of diana ross’s failures as well. don’t leave me this way as a great example of that. I don’t know how much promotion it got or didn’t get, but it limped up the chart so slowly, it would’ve lost the race to the tortoise and the hare. it is a prime example of a great record growing naturally.
I absolutely agree brad. To honestly think Gordy looked upon Mary with a jaundiced eye because she was noble and brave enough to try and protect her colleagues over who drove that station wagon is utterly ridiculous. If anything it proved even then she possessed loyalty and a sense of fairness, principles often found lacking in her work colleague..
Mary was always the complete professional when performing on stage, whether with the Supremes or solo. Something which cannot always be said of M’s Ross.
It’s really quite baffling Motown’s lack of vision and interest in Mary’s potential.
Would it perhaps have detracted from Diana’s fame and uniqueness if another ex-Supreme had also found success. Only Gordy knows the answer.
i think the old station wagon story isn't so much about 1 specific incident back in 1961 or whenever. it was about who you were "with." Mary even mentioned this. that Berry knew mary was also 100% tied to "The Supremes" whereas he was interested in those that were loyal to HIM. This story just might be to illustrate that broader point. Maybe there was more to this than we realize. not saying B and M didn't get along - i'm sure they had tons of fun times along the years. But B knew that M wasn't "totally loyal to him" and so he wasn't 100% interested in her
so it's probably less about the specifics of the station wagon and more about the broader relationship between the two
As usual we have strayed off the basic point of Motown not liking Mary. I will maintain that was not the case.
To my recollection Deke Richards did say the released set was mostly from the last show, with a few songs being subbed in from previous performances because of mixing issues. I never heard anything about Mary Wilson being difficult during this process. What Mary was doing was trying to enjoy herself at a time when she was worried about her own future. That was generally how Mary handled stress; she partied. I think BradSupremes has the more factual post. While Deke may have said some things about Mary, he was always in Diana's corner far more than Mary's.
I respectfully disagree. Are we saying that as opposed to Mary, Diana, would blindly comply with anything and everything Gordy wanted to the detriment of her and the group. As a test of her loyalty, it’s one i seriously doubt.
I think it’s easy to cherry pick certain events and read into them what you would prefer to believe.
The bottom line with Motown and Mary’s relationship is that the company simply didn’t consider her voice as being commercial enough to invest in. Mr Gordy never being one to let his heart rule his head.
Beautiful wasn’t enough to make it worthwhile to invest in. The voice wasn’t commercial enough and maybe Mary didn’t want it enough or work hard enough at it. I’d never heard stories about her being late but there were stories about going on holiday instead of being around for recording Love Child.
It wasn’t just Motown - no real recording contract ever developed, no well known producer actually worked with her and most of all, there were no hits
[QUOTE=Ollie9;795719]I respectfully disagree. Are we saying that as opposed to Mary, Diana, would blindly comply with anything and everything Gordy wanted to the detriment of her and the group. As a test of her loyalty, it’s one i seriously doubt.
I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. I spoke to enough people at Motown, and Randy Taraborrelli wrote about this, that Diane Ross was a very ambitious young lady and nothing was sacred. If at any point in the early days that Gordy told her he wanted to make her a solo star and that she had to ditch the other two, not a doubt in my mind she'd have done it. Would Mary have done it? Maybe not, she has said however that had she been the boss's girl she might have done similar to Diana, though in a different fashion. Florence probably would not have done it.
Diana Ross has said when questioned about the inter-group turmoils that the biggest problem was that they were not relatives, "like the Jackson 5." And that was where her loyalties lied. She stuck by herself and her family first and foremost. Each lady had a different reason for being in The Supremes. Flo enjoyed singing and it was a hobby that became a job. She never, I don't think, expected the group to hit the massive success they achieved. Florence loved children and marriage and family would have suited her more than being a star. Mary, coming from a broken home, saw the Supremes as her adopted family. She has said that she thought she, Flo and Diane would always be together, which was unrealistic on her part. Diane Ross merely saw the Supremes as a stepping stone to something greater.
When the girls were still teenagers Diane Ross one day in the studio told Mary and Flo, "I'm gonna get him." Mary said they looked around thinking it was one of the other male singers. When they realized it was Gordy she was referring to, they laughed at her. He was old enough the be her father. But she wanted the fame and knew he was the one to get her there. She wasn't attracted to him so much physically as it was his power and creativity. It would be Arne Naess that became the big love of her life. It was he that got Ross to pull back from her obsession with stardom and career far more than the other men in her life. Though that only lasted a few years in the 1990s...long enough the derail Ross's recording career to a level she has never recovered from.
I think all of us work with a Diana Ross. Maybe it's a man, but there has always been someone at a company sucking up to the boss for special favors and perhaps sexual payoffs. I quickly add that you don't get to be where Cher, Streisand or Ross is by being nice. Diana Ross was the type of person where, as Mary said, if you were running a race with her and you tripped and fell, Diana would keep going and you had to get back up on your own the way she does. You either stand behind Diana Ross, maybe beside her, but never in front of her. If you were in her way you'd get mowed down. That's what makes a superstar.
So that she would not lash out at Diana and Gordy in the press...which she eventually did.
It is a tribute to Scherrie Payne that the ladies got another recording contract in 1974. Motown was done with the group. But Scherrie started getting rave reviews and Motown had to take note.
[QUOTE=BayouMotownMan;795739] I agree with many of your points that Diana had potential to be ruthless as regards her career advancement. That’s why i was making the point that her loyalty might waver if asked to do something she truly believed was detrimental to that cause.
I have personally met Barbra Streisand and spoken with many who have worked with her over the years. They agree in that she has always treated people with the utmost respect and is devoid of diva tantrums. The fact she has worked with the same personal assistant for over Forty five years speaks volumes. A stark contrast to Diana.
[QUOTE=Ollie9;795761] when you talk to many of the people that have worked WITH diana, she's not an out of control diva. she's very demanding but also gives much. like to gil and her other conductors, her band and orchestra, her choreographers and producers of her specials and stage acts, her movie directors and costars
the stories we've mostly heard about are from people that work FOR her. assistants and the like.
the issue seems to be Diana is a total perfectionist. she demands it of herself and those around her. if you're the band leader, are very good at your job [[which if you're been hired by DR you undoubtedly are) and put on a good show, odds are you won't have temper tantrums thrown at you. your job is quite specific and quite clearly defined
but with an assistant, that clarity and definition of job is not always the case and so it can get much more challenging. in Randy's last DR book, he shares a lot of more intimate stories of Diana and her staff. and yes, some are pretty wild and uncomfortable but they aren't written quite as jaded as the CHMR versions. he also highlights that Diana very much knows all about her close associates - their families, their situations, their lives. she isn't always just a wild out of control diva. there were stories shared where she was quite giving to them. and most of these stories [[good and bad) are from the 80s when things were quite different with her. she was attempting to raise her young teenage children, prove her independence in her career, etc.
[QUOTE=sup_fan;795763] So as long as you get on with the odd band conductor, it’s ok to treat your assistants like s—t by instructing them to avoid eye contact and writing a public letter to destroy their reputation and chances of future employment.
I was at Wembley Arena when’s she was screaming abuse at her band and kicking monitors off stage. Are you saying that’s understandable because that’s how singers raising a family and proving themselves act??.
Though not exclusive to Diana, that behaviour can never be justified by just wanting everything to be perfect. More the behaviour of spoilt, over indulged celebrity.
If you knew me, you'd know I don't make up lies just to prove a point. I have a degree in history and work for a museum, telling the truth and going back to facts is quite important to me. If the Farewell album was a highly edited album from various shows because Mary was a problem then I would say so. The master tapes say otherwise. What we hear is what happened at the show. And I never said Deke was making up the story. A lot of people misremember things. Like BayouMotownMan said, Deke told him the album is mostly the final show. There were some mixing issues similar to what happened with the Copa show so Deke brought Mary into the studio to dub over her two leads. If you listen closely, you can hear her live vocal underneath.
But to say I lie on here. I don't go for that.
You guys are good fellows and I don’t think either of you lie
- history and time changes things and people’s recollections
What I do sense since Mary’s passing is more public acknowledgment that she made a good living, she worked the Supremes name hard for herself, but she had some limits vocally and in terms of drive and confidence
For many years, she was my favourite Supreme. You used to be able to get a free picture of a Supreme out of Motown and I chose Mary. But I think I might identify with Diana’s drive more so now and I wasn’t impressed by Mary’s victim parade which damaged the Supremes a lot. I will always wish she had been more of an Otis Williams businessman and kept the Supremes alive.
Bravo Brad.
My two cents is, everyone remembers things differently. Didn't one of the Andantes SWEAR they were on a Supremes cut, and it was proven otherwise? Mary herself mixed up facts. Diana as well. I'd never consider these inconsistencies to be "lies". You can't remember EVERYTHING from 20 and 30 and 40 and 50 years ago.
I didn’t say anything of the kind. I never accused you of being dishonest- I didn’t infer it. I didn’t suggest it. I didn’t say it and I didn’t think it so you don’t have to go for it.. I said I don’t know why he would go to the trouble to make up such a lengthy lie about the farewell show. I think you should read that again. I will say again the conversation I had with Deke was lengthy and dealt in some specifics. Perhaps he misremembered, perhaps I misremembered, it’s also possible that you misremembered. This conversation didn’t seem like some casual fuzzy memory he had about an album he once worked on decades ago. he was talking to me about the toughest assignments He had at Motown, and mentioned the farewell album, and how it almost did not come out at all. He brought it up, not I. When I asked him why it might not have been released, he told me the story, the hours he spent on it, including trying to match sound levels from different shows. Wasn’t until that conversation that I learned they had recorded several shows. He told me the original plan was to have the farewell album come immediately after January 14, 1970 to capture the audience nostalgia and not interfere with the new acts’ products ..and the reason it took four months to chart is the amount of time he had to spend on it While working on the Jackson 5 and product for diana ross solo.
I didn’t know that you had listened to the master tapes from the final show.
[QUOTE=Ollie9;795771] no i was point out the differences. her perfectionism was total - in all aspects of her life. the role of the conductor is much more clearly defined than that of assistant. if you F up as the conductor, you better believe Diana will scratch your eyes out. but the odds of that happening are more remote. you know pretty much exactly what you need to do and deliver. but as the assistant, you have to read her mind and predict her thoughts. it's impossible and therefore will be continually plagued by problems.
so many of the stories of the problems with her come from her staff and not the musicians or directors or conductors she works with. most of the later do state that she's a hard worker but rewards generously. and they also tended to bear less of her wrath
exactly. the group of superfans on here are committed to the history due to our insane devotion to this group. we've read everything we can get our hands on and commit it all to memory. we trade details, history and stories with one another. for fuck's safe, i built out a large Excel file with all of their recording sessions, tour dates, all of the chart positions for all singles and albums on Billboard, etc lol
the women themselves weren't superfans. this was their job. and sure they probably really loved it. but it wasn't an obsession and it was from a totally different position.
i've been working for decades and thoroughly enjoy my job but i know there are details that i've forgotten or overlooked or memory had clouded. doesn't me i don't care about my career, i've just not built out an excel file documenting every activity lol
[QUOTE=sup_fan;796000] I would say it’s a mixed bag, starting with the trouble she had getting along with other female performers while at Motown. Producer Gary Katz had said working with her was the low point of his career, while Anthony Perkins is quoted as saying she never let him forget it was her movie. There are of course others who have had no such problems.
I think the way she treated her employees was pretty abusive at times, and can’t just be dismissed as wanting everything perfect. She also managed to alienate most of the execs at RCA.
I would question the perfectionist tag, judging by the quality of the product she was turning out during the early 80’s, and lack of dedication to the task at hand as reported by Barry Gibb. Being demanding and/or a perfectionist being not one of the same.
[QUOTE=Ollie9;796023] my guess is she was so hyper focused on proving herself, that she didn't need Berry and Motown, that it raised the perfectionism to new heights. and yet she was so sloppy when it came to her recording career. she was all over these new business efforts - her investments, cutting big deals with Vegas all by herself, the central park initiative, etc. But her cornerstone business of making music suffered. she got lazy with her vocals. wasn't willing to spend the time with top producers like Katz and the Gibbs and really give them the performances they wanted
[QUOTE=Ollie9;796057] she'd probably give some annoyingly MOR response about how valuable the whole "growth" experience was lol. Why Do Fools is [[i'm pretty sure) an all-time fav song of hers. so doing a remake of it was probably something she loved. i think she founds pretty great on the song but it's NOT the debut single for a whole new phase of a recording career. Mirror Mirror would have been better.
i'm guessing that she probably doesn't see how halfassed she was with her music. most people aren't that objective with themselves
If there was one thing Diana wasn't good at was making the best choices for her own career. Even today there are things she does that I wish someone had told her to do differently e.g. a more heartfelt statement on Mary's death. And I get she's in a "damned if you, damned if you don't" situation no matter what she does. I understand an artist's desire to do things their own way. Who wouldn't? She's lived a long enough life to make her own decisions. But ultimately we don't always know what's best for ourselves. That was Diana's shortfall. The Wiz is a perfect example. Without someone like Gordy guiding her, she was left to her own devices and musically suffered at a time when her contemporaries like Dionne, Gladys, Aretha, and Patti were having huge resurgences in the 80s. That could have been her but instead she made some poor choices and her music charting career ended in 1986 as a result.
I somewhat agree although I’m not sure giving up some control would have changed things - she had been on top a very long time and things change; also Mary and Randy may have done damage.
But also the charting did continue - with Rod Stewart, with Blue which reached #2 on the Jazz Chart, with Christmas in Vienna - did it reach #1 somewhere? And the multiple #1’s on the Dance Chart
Also, it’s odd but The Wiz is now her most successful movie and will last forever.
I agree Brad regarding Diana's response to Mary's death. I'm sure her passing shook her up a bit. I think Flo's death shook her up quite a bit too and it seems like the best way she knew how to cope with it was to give it as little acknowledgement as possible. A strange way to cope with it but that's just my theory.
Aww man, Brad, Diana is the poster child for "Not Everybody Should Have Total Control", my latest documentary. Be on the lookout for it.:p
I understand her need for control. She was in her mid to late 30s and had never had the independence that comes with being an adult, not really. And I do think she made a few good decisions. Central Park comes to mind. Hooking up with Lionel again, and Daryl Hall, if only for a song, was also a good move, since they both resulted in two hit singles and helped her album go platinum [[or was it gold?). The RHRAB tv special was good, even though the album was a let down. Stolen Moments was brilliant. Finally doing a Christmas album was an accomplishment. So she had it in her to make good decisions, but she needed someone overseeing everything. Someone who would tell her that sound isn't where it's at; no, Diana, that producer hasn't had a hit in five years, get with this producer who is on fire right now; this script is great, do the movie instead of the karaoke style album you're trying to give the fans after a seven year wait; Diana this autobiography is trash, dish the dirt on Mary and return the favor...you know, stuff like that.:cool: