The Differing Typefaces Used On Labels Of The Same Single/Anyone Know Why?

This is, admittedly, a small concern but it's something I've always wondered about. You can clearly see the different styles used on the following 2 exhibits:

Exhibit A:
http://images.45cat.com/the-supremes...heart-1966.jpg

Exhibit B:
http://images.45cat.com/the-supremes...art-motown.jpg

I always assumed that more than 1 company was contracted with to do the printing but if that was the case, wouldn't Motown have wanted the style to have been duplicated on all copies?

Anyone have any light to shed on this? My thanks for any you might have.

You were right. Like most other record companies, Motown used more than one pressing plant. The reason was simple, for distribution purposes. On in Indiana, one in New Jersey, one in Los Angeles...the typesetting isn't really important, but it is cool for today's record collectors!

Now, most pressing plants on the East coast, the South, and midwest, used vinyl pucks for their 45s, while the one on the West coast usually used styrene. Some record companies, like Atlantic, printed plant codes on the label, while most others engraved then on the runout groove along with the cat/tape number and the engineer's stamp.

Some pressing plants and labels only used vinyl, like Capitol, and one printed the label right onto the vinyl, like the one Bell used on the East Coast. I know an expert who knows all the minutiae about record pressings. I can put you in touch with him, if you like.

Many collectors consider styrene to be of lesser quality than vinyl, but I have no issue with it. If that styrene is played with a Shibata-type stylus, more commonly known as a Fine-line or Microline stylus, and if the tonearm and cart are not 100% calibrated on your turntable, you can actually shred it. I've shredded exactly two records, and that was only when the tone arm tracking force was off a bit. Otherwise, I have no problem playing styrene 45s on my Audio Technica 150mlX cartridge. LPs are never an issue.

During the oil embargo in the 70s, some pressing plants started using cheaper quality vinyl with more compounds and garbage scraps, or used smaller pucks, or pressed the records thinner. Motown, again, was no different. And, Motown somehow developed a reputation for releasing bad-quality pressings in the late 70s, but I have never encountered any problems.

Anyway, have fun collecting 45s [[and albums) with varying typesetting, label colors, and pressings.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by soulster

You were right. Like most other record companies, Motown used more than one pressing plant. The reason was simple, for distribution purposes. On in Indiana, one in New Jersey, one in Los Angeles...the typesetting isn't really important, but it is cool for today's record collectors!

Now, most pressing plants on the East coast, the South, and midwest, used vinyl pucks for their 45s, while the one on the West coast usually used styrene. Some record companies, like Atlantic, printed plant codes on the label, while most others engraved then on the runout groove along with the cat/tape number and the engineer's stamp.

Some pressing plants and labels only used vinyl, like Capitol, and one printed the label right onto the vinyl, like the one Bell used on the East Coast. I know an expert who knows all the minutiae about record pressings. I can put you in touch with him, if you like.

Many collectors consider styrene to be of lesser quality than vinyl, but I have no issue with it. If that styrene is played with a Shibata-type stylus, more commonly known as a Fine-line or Microline stylus, and if the tonearm and cart are not 100% calibrated on your turntable, you can actually shred it. I've shredded exactly two records, and that was only when the tone arm tracking force was off a bit. Otherwise, I have no problem playing styrene 45s on my Audio Technica 150mlX cartridge. LPs are never an issue.

During the oil embargo in the 70s, some pressing plants started using cheaper quality vinyl with more compounds and garbage scraps, or used smaller pucks, or pressed the records thinner. Motown, again, was no different. And, Motown somehow developed a reputation for releasing bad-quality pressings in the late 70s, but I have never encountered any problems.

Anyway, have fun collecting 45s [[and albums) with varying typesetting, label colors, and pressings.

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Soulster - Thank you so much for your wonderful response.
Really interesting; very informative. Many things I didn't know or have even considered. Greatly appreciated.

And, for some labels, like Elektra in the 60s and early 70s, had one label style that was done on the East Coast, and another label style that was used on the West Coast. And, some plants used up older label stock before switching to new ones.

Here is one example of what i'm talking about:
http://www.45cat.com/record/ek45615

For Motown, here's an example of the same song pressed by two different plants with two different label stock:
Attachment 5801Attachment 5802

I grew up with the record using the second Gordy label, but one of a darker color and typeset from yet another plant, and was styrene. For me, it was a way of signifying a change in the group's style having that second Gordy label.

EMI/Capitol Records was unique, in that they usually only pressed records for their own family of labels. Warner Brothers, and Solar, when they were under Capitol distribution from 1979-1981, were notable exceptions here in the U.S.. They did press product for Atlantic in other countries.

Attachment 5803
The use of older label styles occurred because many pressing plants kept large stocks of blank labels for their largest customers, because of the money saved by printing up so many, and also in case a record took off, and they would need to press many more than expected with almost no notice ahead. Because of the plant owners' large investments in labels, the record company had to allow the plants to use up their old stock on hand, even after they changed their label design [[so as to keep a good relationship with the pressing plants).

Thank you Soulster and Robb. I had no idea a single was ever released by Motown under two differently styled labels with their new logos but your explanations clearly pinpointed why that happened. I find it so interesting. I guess the printing/pressing companies had their own record sleeves, as well: Motown often used a red one that made the 45 appear on a record player; an older version of the Tamla label used a bicycle effect sleeve; there was also a generic white sleeve that showed mini-shots of album covers, sometimes tinted in blue, brown, or black. But label-wise, the Motown map label became truly iconic. As did so many of the recordings themselves.

Any thoughts on why there were so many Motown sub-labels, like Tamla, Gordy, Soul, V.I.P., etc.? I could see a different label for a different genre of music. But for music of the same genre, what do you think was the reasoning behind having so many sub-labels? From a branding point, wouldn't it have made all releases more immediately identifiable by the general public to have had them all released with the Motown map label?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Methuselah2

Any thoughts on why there were so many Motown sub-labels, like Tamla, Gordy, Soul, V.I.P., etc.? I could see a different label for a different genre of music. But for music of the same genre, what do you think was the reasoning behind having so many sub-labels? From a branding point, wouldn't it have made all releases more immediately identifiable by the general public to have had them all released with the Motown map label?

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Again, it was primarily done for radio, so they could tell what kind of music to expect.

I believe I read that different labels gave Motown a better chance of gaining airplay....5 45s on Motown would probably cause issues, whereby 2 on tamla, 2 Gordy etc would ease that problem....also it had something to do with distributors, who 'worked' the different labels....i.e. some access to Tamla, some to Motown etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snakepit

I believe I read that different labels gave Motown a better chance of gaining airplay....5 45s on Motown would probably cause issues, whereby 2 on tamla, 2 Gordy etc would ease that problem....also it had something to do with distributors, who 'worked' the different labels....i.e. some access to Tamla, some to Motown etc.

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Attachment 5812
This is exactly correct. Those are the two main reasons. When VIP started, Motown didn't even print "Product of Motown Record Corporation" on the label. DJs weren't going to fill up their playlist with one company's releases. Motown used several different distributors, so they'd never have ALL their releases stalled if one distributor would be having problems. During Motown's heyday, they were distributed by at least 4 major national distributors.

Soulster, Robb, & Snakepit -

Thanks so much for all your responses. They make a great deal of sense to me and really clear things up.

P.S. to Robb: I always enjoy seeing your photo attached. You remind me a lot of Kris Kristofferson. A very lucky bonus, I'd say.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Methuselah2

Soulster, Robb, & Snakepit -

Thanks so much for all your responses. They make a great deal of sense to me and really clear things up.

P.S. to Robb: I always enjoy seeing your photo attached. You remind me a lot of Kris Kristofferson. A very lucky bonus, I'd say.

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Attachment 5816
I like avatars. So I had to be creative.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by robb_k

Attachment 5812
This is exactly correct. Those are the two main reasons. When VIP started, Motown didn't even print "Product of Motown Record Corporation" on the label. DJs weren't going to fill up their playlist with one company's releases. Motown used several different distributors, so they'd never have ALL their releases stalled if one distributor would be having problems. During Motown's heyday, they were distributed by at least 4 major national distributors.

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I was short on time so I didn't finish what I wanted to say about radio.

Some radio stations made musical decisions based on the record company. If, say, some rock station saw a Motown promo record come in for a pop or rock band, they may not have given it a chance. But if a band came in on, say, the Rare Earth label, they might give it a chance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by robb_k

Attachment 5816
I like avatars. So I had to be creative.

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I do too. I still wish whoever administers this site would have enabled them.

I've always found this an interesting topic, and the UK also had its typeface quirks. When the 'Tamla Motown' label was created in the UK in 1965 it was part of the EMI stable of labels. As such it used the EMI house typeface of the time [[which I always call the "tall, thin" typeface - does anyone know what font this is, BTW??), from all releases from TMG 501 to the late TMG 500s in the main. Then sometime around the end of 1966 they began using a "shorter, fatter" typeface, but in the main, only for singles that they expected to be big hits in the UK. Hence, releases like TMG 585 [[you keep me hanging on) and TMG 599 [[jimmy mack) only appeared with the latter typeface [[presumably expecting them to be hits), whilst others [[such as TMG 592 - goodnight irene, and TMG 598 - mirage) still appeared only in the 'old' typeface, presumably because they didn't expect large sales. It seems that some issues [[like TMG 590 - it takes two, and TMG 609 - when you're young and in love) had all their early pressings in the old typeface, but, as they began selling better than expected, subsequent pressings were issued in the 'new' typeface. As 1967 [[and the TMG 600s) progressed, the old typeface appeared less and less often, but was still used as late as TMG 639 [[magician) in 1968.

Boring to most people, i know, but this always fascinated me when i was collecting UK motown issues in the 1980s, and I desperately scoured record fairs to see if there existed copies of certain singles in the 'old' typeface [[such as the aforementioned 'hanging' and 'jimmy', along with 'bernadette', 'love is here', 'all i need', etc. - there weren't.) If my theory is true about the potential bigger sellers being allocated the newer style of typeface during this transitional time [[and this was also true with all the other EMI labels, so affected names such as the Beatles, Cliff Richard, Herman's Hermits) then this has always conjoured up to me a picture of one EMI employee who had the bizarre job of deciding "no, Chris Clark, she won't sell big...give her the 'old' typeface", or "wow, the Marvelettes are having their first UK hit - my bad - swop the typefaces quick"...

Hello

I mostly lurk around here but I thought I would provide a link to an invaluable website that I found when I started to collect Motown labels and sleeves.
http://www.45-sleeves.com/

Hope it is useful for the collectors out there.
Dave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by drcity

Hello

I mostly lurk around here but I thought I would provide a link to an invaluable website that I found when I started to collect Motown labels and sleeves.
http://www.45-sleeves.com/

Hope it is useful for the collectors out there.
Dave

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Holy smokes, Drcity. What a super site! Many, many thanks. I'd call it SLEEVEY WONDER!

Nice site. I'm trying to provide a new login for out record labels site.

Don't forget the 45 database with a huge selection of labels - just type in a name or record number etc to view different versions of the same issue...
http://www.45cat.com/

Did you ever notice that when the record came out, the copy you bought at a record
shop was of better quality than those available after it hit at discount dept. store?

Those copies were cheaper and was a deal the company got from the pressing plants.
Just like clothes and shoes at disc. dept. stores, the records were of cheaper quality too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by randy_russi

Did you ever notice that when the record came out, the copy you bought at a record
shop was of better quality than those available after it hit at discount dept. store?

Those copies were cheaper and was a deal the company got from the pressing plants.
Just like clothes and shoes at disc. dept. stores, the records were of cheaper quality too.

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If there was any truth to that, and I don't believe there ever was, I would say it's because the 45s in the department stores were second pressings and were pressed by worn stampers, or that a hit record was produced quickly and cheaply to get more product out there.

Attachment 5836
I'd say that that was true some of the time, but also the opposite some of the time. I think that the discount sales just received unsold records. Sometimes they had been subjected to a little demo playing in the record stores, or dust collection atop the grooves that got some scratching on them from handling of the record, in which the jacket/sleeve paper moved across the grooves.

Hi,
Have you studied my site http://www.seabear.se/

There you can find a lot of different label designs and typefaces...

Lars

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lg_nilsson

Hi,
Have you studied my site http://www.seabear.se/

There you can find a lot of different label designs and typefaces...

Lars

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Gadzooks, Lars! Holy cow! Your site is just sensational. Absolutely wonderful. It's a veritable trip to Candy Land--and I am not leaving till I've seen it all. [[Sorry, Eddie Holland/HDH--I ain't LEAVING HERE!) Many, many thanks to you, Lars. This is one helluva beautiful sight of a site. Superb. It's music to my eyes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by psychedelic jacques

I've always found this an interesting topic, and the UK also had its typeface quirks. When the 'Tamla Motown' label was created in the UK in 1965 it was part of the EMI stable of labels. As such it used the EMI house typeface of the time [[which I always call the "tall, thin" typeface - does anyone know what font this is, BTW??), from all releases from TMG 501 to the late TMG 500s in the main. Then sometime around the end of 1966 they began using a "shorter, fatter" typeface, but in the main, only for singles that they expected to be big hits in the UK. Hence, releases like TMG 585 [[you keep me hanging on) and TMG 599 [[jimmy mack) only appeared with the latter typeface [[presumably expecting them to be hits), whilst others [[such as TMG 592 - goodnight irene, and TMG 598 - mirage) still appeared only in the 'old' typeface, presumably because they didn't expect large sales. It seems that some issues [[like TMG 590 - it takes two, and TMG 609 - when you're young and in love) had all their early pressings in the old typeface, but, as they began selling better than expected, subsequent pressings were issued in the 'new' typeface. As 1967 [[and the TMG 600s) progressed, the old typeface appeared less and less often, but was still used as late as TMG 639 [[magician) in 1968.

Boring to most people, i know, but this always fascinated me when i was collecting UK motown issues in the 1980s, and I desperately scoured record fairs to see if there existed copies of certain singles in the 'old' typeface [[such as the aforementioned 'hanging' and 'jimmy', along with 'bernadette', 'love is here', 'all i need', etc. - there weren't.) If my theory is true about the potential bigger sellers being allocated the newer style of typeface during this transitional time [[and this was also true with all the other EMI labels, so affected names such as the Beatles, Cliff Richard, Herman's Hermits) then this has always conjoured up to me a picture of one EMI employee who had the bizarre job of deciding "no, Chris Clark, she won't sell big...give her the 'old' typeface", or "wow, the Marvelettes are having their first UK hit - my bad - swop the typefaces quick"...

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Hi Jacques, Great to find somebody else that thinks like me. I've been troubled by this font style for years and couldn't get others to understand. I describe the different font styles used as flat back G for the old style and round back G for the new style.
I have TMG 585 as a flat back G but am still looking to replace the following round back G's with flat backs; can you help?
TMG 587, TMG 589, TMG 597, TMG 599.

This thread is SDF at its best! Fascinating information and background about the music, its production, etc., with no sniping! Notice that it has had about 2300 "views" -- unlike many of the other threads have 200-400. Hmmmmm. :-)

Thanks to all for helping us LEARN about Motown!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by soulster

You were right. Like most other record companies, Motown used more than one pressing plant. The reason was simple, for distribution purposes. On in Indiana, one in New Jersey, one in Los Angeles...the typesetting isn't really important, but it is cool for today's record collectors!

Now, most pressing plants on the East coast, the South, and midwest, used vinyl pucks for their 45s, while the one on the West coast usually used styrene. Some record companies, like Atlantic, printed plant codes on the label, while most others engraved then on the runout groove along with the cat/tape number and the engineer's stamp.

Some pressing plants and labels only used vinyl, like Capitol, and one printed the label right onto the vinyl, like the one Bell used on the East Coast. I know an expert who knows all the minutiae about record pressings. I can put you in touch with him, if you like.

Many collectors consider styrene to be of lesser quality than vinyl, but I have no issue with it. If that styrene is played with a Shibata-type stylus, more commonly known as a Fine-line or Microline stylus, and if the tonearm and cart are not 100% calibrated on your turntable, you can actually shred it. I've shredded exactly two records, and that was only when the tone arm tracking force was off a bit. Otherwise, I have no problem playing styrene 45s on my Audio Technica 150mlX cartridge. LPs are never an issue.

During the oil embargo in the 70s, some pressing plants started using cheaper quality vinyl with more compounds and garbage scraps, or used smaller pucks, or pressed the records thinner. Motown, again, was no different. And, Motown somehow developed a reputation for releasing bad-quality pressings in the late 70s, but I have never encountered any problems.

Anyway, have fun collecting 45s [[and albums) with varying typesetting, label colors, and pressings.

---

One of their main pressing plants was up North in Michigan. There was only so much you could do with a typewriter in those days...................

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lg_nilsson

Hi,
Have you studied my site http://www.seabear.se/

There you can find a lot of different label designs and typefaces...

Lars

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Whatever happened to this wonderful website??
Lars had such a love and knowledge of Motown.

I knew I wasn't the only nut case around! LOL

I think my proudest set is Marvin's Grapevine on the US Tamla Globe and World design.

Also worth a look is discogs site. The link I've attached takes you to the Temptations entry and I looked up the above mentioned [[I Know) I'm Losing You - they have images for both typefaces.

http://www.discogs.com/artist/28332-Temptations-The

With regard to the UK 'old style', I always felt that the typeface was consistent with the orange paper sleeve. The change to the sleeves with LP covers was mixed and then the olive green style sleeve seemed to have the fatter design.
Always loved the old thinner typeface.....the 45 seemed more exotic

The tall print was associated with most people's favourites.

http://soulfuldetroit.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by lg_nilsson http://soulfuldetroit.com/images/but...post-right.png
Hi,
Have you studied my site http://www.seabear.se/

There you can find a lot of different label designs and typefaces...

Lars

Quote:

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Originally Posted by carolecucumber;

Whatever happened to this wonderful website??

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by carolecucumber;

Lars had such a love and knowledge of Motown.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by theboyfromxtown

I knew I wasn't the only nut case around! LOL

I think my proudest set is Marvin's Grapevine on the US Tamla Globe and World design.

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???? What's the connection between concern about Lars Nilsson & his fabulous website and your surprising comment???????????

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ashtray

Hi Jacques, Great to find somebody else that thinks like me. I've been troubled by this font style for years and couldn't get others to understand. I describe the different font styles used as flat back G for the old style and round back G for the new style.
I have TMG 585 as a flat back G but am still looking to replace the following round back G's with flat backs; can you help?
TMG 587, TMG 589, TMG 597, TMG 599.

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Does anybody have any of the above listed TMG numbers with flat back G's / old style fonts / tall thin typesets, for sale?

TMG 587 - The Temptations - [[I Know) I'm Losing You / Little Miss Sweetness
TMG 589 - The Four Tops - Standing In The Shadow Of Love / Since You've Been Gone
TMG 597 - The Supremes - Love Is Here And Now You're Gone / There's No Stopping Us Now
TMG 599 - Martha and The Vandellas - Jimmy Mack / Third Finger, Left Hand

Please message me with condition and price. Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by longtimefan

This thread is SDF at its best! Fascinating information and background about the music, its production, etc., with no sniping! Notice that it has had about 2300 "views" -- unlike many of the other threads have 200-400. Hmmmmm. :-)

Thanks to all for helping us LEARN about Motown!!!

---

I agree. Great topic, Methusaleh.

Attachment 8968
Back in the early 2000s, we had tonnes of informational threads like this. Unfortunately, we lost most of them when Lowell changed the website's platform. We still have those that DID survive in the "Classic Threads" Archive. Sadly, also, some of our classic knowledgeable posters have passed on.