The First Time You Recognized A New Record As Being MOTOWN!!!

By Autumn 1964, the new "Motown Sound" was on fire as one hit after another simultaneously burned its way up the charts while boasting a HOT new style! Mary Wells' "My Guy", The Supremes' "Where Did Our Love Go", "Baby Love", and "Come See About Me," Martha & The Vandellas' "Dancing In The Street", Four Tops' "Baby I Need Your Loving" and "Without The One You Love", and The Marvelettes' "Too Many Fish In The Sea" paved the way for an exciting new phenomenon that would soon set new standards for Pop & Soul music globally!

By March 1965, in addition to the above titles, I had managed to add Martha & The Vandellas' "Wild One" 45 and The Temptations' "Sing Smokey" album to my burgeoning Motown record collection. By now, I had come to recognize the various elements of Motown's style. I was soon put to the test!

I'll never forget that Spring day in May 1965 when I turned on the kitchen radio on top of the fridge just in time to hear a new song which really caught my ear. I turned it up louder and thrilled to every second from start to finish. Whatever it was, I recognized that special magical sound that only Motown could produce so perfectly -- the dotted-eights shuffle beat, the elegant-yet-soulful strings, and those amazing back-up girl-group vocals. I could only hope that the radio DJ would announce the artist and title because I knew I just HAD to get that record. As the record faded, sure enough -- I got my wish as the DJ revealed it was brand new from artist Brenda Holloway titled "When I'm Gone"!

I don't remember how I got there, as I was only 14 and not driving yet, but I somehow managed to wangle a ride from my parents to Cass record store in Geneva, NY, to buy that record. The coolest part of that trip was discovering that I was right! My new must-have record was on the Tamla label -- indeed, the Motown Sound! After that, it became increasingly easy to recognize Motown's releases -- even when the artist was new and vocally unfamiliar.

Okay, so Brenda Holloway's "When I'm Gone" was my first ability to recognize the Motown Sound upon the first hearing without any help.

Do you remember that first proud moment when YOU just KNEW the record you were hearing for the first time was a Motown recording? Tell us the artist and song title, and what you were doing as you first heard it!

Lonely Lonely Girl [[Am I) -- The Velvelettes-- sitting on the back porch listening to a local
oldies program. In those days, they had DJs who would specifically do scheduled oldies programs when we had transistor radios.

Bird in the hand is worth [[two in the bush) -- Velvelettes -- It was playing on the radio
in the Men's Dorm recreation area at college.

My Weakness is You--Edwin Starr--In the car on the Turnpike going to visit Aunt and Uncle
out of town.

The Motown songs by the lesser known artists always caught me off guard
as I had never heard of those artists, only the big names up to that point. My thought was
"I KNEW it was Motown but Who?"

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Originally Posted by nevertoolate

Lonely Lonely Girl [[Am I) -- The Velvelettes-- sitting on the back porch listening to a local
oldies program. In those days, they had DJs who would specifically do scheduled oldies programs when we had transistor radios.

Bird in the hand is worth [[two in the bush) -- Velvelettes -- It was playing on the radio
in the Men's Dorm recreation area at college.

My Weakness is You--Edwin Starr--In the car on the Turnpike going to visit Aunt and Uncle
out of town.

The Motown songs by the lesser known artists always caught me off guard
as I had never heard of those artists, only the big names up to that point. My thought was
"I KNEW it was Motown but Who?"

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Hi Never, our local AM Radio station -- WGVA in Geneva, NY -- played tons of Motown by all of the major acts, but not always the lesser known acts. I don't recall them ever playing anything by The Velvelettes, which is a shame. If they had played The Velvelettes' "A Bird In The Hand", that bold & brazen baritone sax in the intro alone would have been a dead-giveaway that it was another Motown release that I just HAD to get my hands on!

Those two Velvelette 45s were VERY hard to come by, lucked up finding Lonely Lonely
Girl [[Am I) in an oldies 45 record bin. Never found an original copy of "Bird in the hand"
I was elated when the" Best of the Velvelettes" CD came out. It had all of their songs,
but "Let Love Live" became my favorite!

"Bird In the Hand" was very hard to find an original copy haven't seen one yet. I was
elated when Motown put out the "Best of the Velvelettes" CD. It had that song plus the
unreleased "Let Love Live" which out Motowned "Bird In the Hand"!

I can relate two similar experiences........

As a teenager in the mid 60s, one of my local radio stations was always playing the lesser-known Motown songs. Sure you could hear I Hear a Symphony and My Girl any old time on any station, but this station was the first place that I heard Needle in a Haystack and He's a Good Guy [[Yes He Is.) A few years later it was the only station where I ever heard In and Out of My Life.

And secondly, also in the mid 60s, I spotted the 45 for Heaven Must Have Sent You in a cut out bin. I had never heard of the song or the group at the time, but I knew that VIP was a Motown label, so I bought it. I flipped when I got home and played that song and to this day, I could hear it 20 times a day and never tire of it. Definitely one of my top five all-time songs, Motown or otherwise.

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Originally Posted by nevertoolate

Those two Velvelette 45s were VERY hard to come by, lucked up finding Lonely Lonely
Girl [[Am I) in an oldies 45 record bin. Never found an original copy of "Bird in the hand"
I was elated when the" Best of the Velvelettes" CD came out. It had all of their songs,
but "Let Love Live" became my favorite!

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Never, I, too, found The Velvelettes' "Lonely Lonely Girl Am I" and "He Was Really Saying Something" in a 45 closeout bin. I have since bought a NM copy of "Needle In A Haystack" from an eBay seller in Detroit whose husband had died and she was selling his huge record collection a piece at a time, although the only copy of "A Bird In The Hand" I could find was a back-to-back reissue on the Motown Yester-Year Label. More importantly, I have them all on CD from the mastertapes.

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Originally Posted by daviddesper

I can relate two similar experiences........

As a teenager in the mid 60s, one of my local radio stations was always playing the lesser-known Motown songs. Sure you could hear I Hear a Symphony and My Girl any old time on any station, but this station was the first place that I heard Needle in a Haystack and He's a Good Guy [[Yes He Is.) A few years later it was the only station where I ever heard In and Out of My Life.

And secondly, also in the mid 60s, I spotted the 45 for Heaven Must Have Sent You in a cut out bin. I had never heard of the song or the group at the time, but I knew that VIP was a Motown label, so I bought it. I flipped when I got home and played that song and to this day, I could hear it 20 times a day and never tire of it. Definitely one of my top five all-time songs, Motown or otherwise.

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Hi David! How rare and lucky that you found The Elgins' "Heaven Must Have Sent You" in a close-out bin! I'll bet you played the heck out of it!

Our local AM station did play The Marvelettes' "He's A Good Guy [[Yes He Is)", although I wasn't crazy about it. At the time, it was too raucousy for my taste, and it was just before I got into Motown. Now, of course, I have a soft spot for it -- just not as much as The Marvelettes' other Motown hits.

You're lucky to have had a radio station that specialized in playing the lesser known Motown releases. Martha Reeves & The Vandellas' "In And Out Of My Life" is beautiful and should have gotten its fair share of airplay as it deserved to become a hit in its own right.

I consider The Supremes' "Where Did Love Go" my first Motown Record from the time it hit the radio in the summer of 1964. From then on I became familiar with the classic Motown Sound and I could identify songs like "Baby I Need Your Loving", "Dancing In The Street", "My Girl" & "I'll Always Love You" [by The Spinners] as being made by Motown.

Mine was "Put Yourself In My Place" by The Elgins..I was 12yrs old in 1978 and just gotten into Motown via the Northern Soul scene..the radio was on and the show that was on used to have an hour from a certain year...the year was 1971 and the song had been a minor hit in that year here in the U.K ..as soon as I heard the track I just knew it was Motown and waited with baited breath to hear who it was...the dj on the show was an avid Motown fan and after the track played he said "and thats another Motown treasure"...I was over the moon that it was a Motown track as I totally loved it..at the weekend myself and the gang did our usual second hand record shopping and as trawled through the Motown boxes tho and behold there was a pristine copy just waiting for me to take home and cherish...I played it to death and its still in my top 3 Motown tracks of all time to this day....ahhhh the memories..great thread btw.

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Originally Posted by mowsville

Mine was "Put Yourself In My Place" by The Elgins..I was 12yrs old in 1978 and just gotten into Motown via the Northern Soul scene..the radio was on and the show that was on used to have an hour from a certain year...the year was 1971 and the song had been a minor hit in that year here in the U.K ..as soon as I heard the track I just knew it was Motown and waited with baited breath to hear who it was...the dj on the show was an avid Motown fan and after the track played he said "and thats another Motown treasure"...I was over the moon that it was a Motown track as I totally loved it..at the weekend myself and the gang did our usual second hand record shopping and as trawled through the Motown boxes tho and behold there was a pristine copy just waiting for me to take home and cherish...I played it to death and its still in my top 3 Motown tracks of all time to this day....ahhhh the memories..great thread btw.

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excellent recounting ... & I can relate concerning those certain special records !

'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1_JcGktfBo
on

This is kind of hazy for me because I was 11 years old when I discovered Motown with Stop! In the Name of Love, Back In My Arms Again and then the More Hits By The Supremes album. The album's inner paper sleeve showing all the available Motown albums opened up a whole new universe to me. I suddenly knew who the Four Tops, Temptations, Miracles & Martha & the Vandellas were, and that My Guy, Dancing In The Streets, My Girl, Shotgun & I Can't Help Myself were Motown hits.

The first new record I knew had to be a Motown record was probably The Isley Brothers' This Old Heart Of Mine. It just jumped out at me as a Motown song and production! It totally made sense to me when I later read that it possibly had been earmarked for the Supremes.

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Originally Posted by Motown Eddie

I consider The Supremes' "Where Did Love Go" my first Motown Record from the time it hit the radio in the summer of 1964. From then on I became familiar with the classic Motown Sound and I could identify songs like "Baby I Need Your Loving", "Dancing In The Street", "My Girl" & "I'll Always Love You" [by The Spinners] as being made by Motown.

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Eddie, I cannot understand, for the life of me, why The Spinners' "I'll Always Love You" wasn't a hit. It has all the earmarks of a Motown hit [[4/4 on the snare, tambourine, baritone sax, piano, and up-front brass), and it's catchy as all get-out thanks to its top-notch arrangement, production, and perfect vocals, yet it got no airplay where I lived and, apparently, not many radio stations elsewhere, either. Same goes for its beautiful follow-up, "Truly Yours", which should have been a hit based on its gorgeous string passages alone.

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Originally Posted by mowsville

Mine was "Put Yourself In My Place" by The Elgins..I was 12yrs old in 1978 and just gotten into Motown via the Northern Soul scene..the radio was on and the show that was on used to have an hour from a certain year...the year was 1971 and the song had been a minor hit in that year here in the U.K ..as soon as I heard the track I just knew it was Motown and waited with baited breath to hear who it was...the dj on the show was an avid Motown fan and after the track played he said "and thats another Motown treasure"...I was over the moon that it was a Motown track as I totally loved it..at the weekend myself and the gang did our usual second hand record shopping and as trawled through the Motown boxes tho and behold there was a pristine copy just waiting for me to take home and cherish...I played it to death and its still in my top 3 Motown tracks of all time to this day....ahhhh the memories..great thread btw.

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How lucky you were, mowsville, to find that fresh, new copy of your favorite Motown record! It's a special thrill that I think most of us live for -- like finding an array of super-rare Motown 45s in a close-out bin by artists I knew and loved, as well as Motown artists I had never even heard of. Special moments like that are what keeps the heart young!

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Originally Posted by lucky2012

This is kind of hazy for me because I was 11 years old when I discovered Motown with Stop! In the Name of Love, Back In My Arms Again and then the More Hits By The Supremes album. The album's inner paper sleeve showing all the available Motown albums opened up a whole new universe to me. I suddenly knew who the Four Tops, Temptations, Miracles & Martha & the Vandellas were, and that My Guy, Dancing In The Streets, My Girl, Shotgun & I Can't Help Myself were Motown hits.

The first new record I knew had to be a Motown record was probably The Isley Brothers' This Old Heart Of Mine. It just jumped out at me as a Motown song and production! It totally made sense to me when I later read that it possibly had been earmarked for the Supremes.

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Lucky, those Motown LP inner sleeves advertising the countless Motown albums available were a Motown collector's dream come true! I lived for them! It was fun to watch them being updated every few months to include Motown's latest releases. Motown knew how to advertise its product, and they knew they could count on us fans to make it worth their while.

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Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary

Lucky, those Motown LP inner sleeves advertising the countless Motown albums available were a Motown collector's dream come true! I lived for them! It was fun to watch them being updated every few months to include Motown's latest releases. Motown knew how to advertise its product, and they knew they could count on us fans to make it worth their while.

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My best friend's mother had a bunch of old Motown albums and they had inner sleeves that I had never seen. I'm talking about those that had the really early and mid 60s albums. One day, I conveniently brought some of my late 60s sleeves over and with my friend's help, switched them for some of hers. I'm sure she forgave me. :D

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Originally Posted by reese

My best friend's mother had a bunch of old Motown albums and they had inner sleeves that I had never seen. I'm talking about those that had the really early and mid 60s albums. One day, I conveniently brought some of my late 60s sleeves over and with my friend's help, switched them for some of hers. I'm sure she forgave me. :D

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Lol, Reese! I probably would have done the same. :)

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Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary

Eddie, I cannot understand, for the life of me, why The Spinners' "I'll Always Love You" wasn't a hit. It has all the earmarks of a Motown hit [[4/4 on the snare, tambourine, baritone sax, piano, and up-front brass), and it's catchy as all get-out thanks to its top-notch arrangement, production, and perfect vocals, yet it got no airplay where I lived and, apparently, not many radio stations elsewhere, either. Same goes for its beautiful follow-up, "Truly Yours", which should have been a hit based on its gorgeous string passages alone.

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I Agree!! At least "I'll Always Love You" was a moderate hit [#8 R&B/#35 Pop according to Billboard]. The same goes for "Truly Yours" [#16 R&B Billboard]. One thing about The Motown Sound; there were so many Great Songs once it got going, they needed their own radio station to play them all [and that's not even counting the songs that ended up the Vaults].

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Originally Posted by Motown Eddie

I Agree!! At least "I'll Always Love You" was a moderate hit [#8 R&B/#35 Pop according to Billboard]. The same goes for "Truly Yours" [#16 R&B Billboard]. One thing about The Motown Sound; there were so many Great Songs once it got going, they needed their own radio station to play them all [and that's not even counting the songs that ended up the Vaults].

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Eddie, the idea of Motown having its own radio station to plug their latest 1960s/early '70s releases is pure genius! I've heard of current-day radio stations on SeriusXM that play only Motown, but that's totally different. 1960's Motown playing ALL of their latest 45 and LP releases would have increased sales for ALL Motown artists -- the stars and the lesser-known artists alike! Just think -- artists like The Elgins, The Monitors, Chris Clark, Barbara Randolph, Shorty Long, and The Velvelettes would have had an equal chance at chart positions and sales as Motown's stars like Diana/Supremes, Smokey, Marvin, and Stevie, as well as boosting sales for Brenda Holloway, Kim Weston, Martha/Vandellas & The Marvelettes -- all of whom recorded top-notch recordings for Motown which received little or no airplay at times. If only we could turn the clock back to the '60s to take advantage of such a Motown commodity!

There are stations on Sirius XM that play a lot of Motown, and they might have special days like Motown Monday, but to the best of my knowledge, there is no station that plays all Motown all the time. But if there is such a thing, someone please tell us!!! I agree the demand and the material would certainly be there.

back in the heyday of Oldies radio, WOGL In Philly was the best - all the Philly Motown hits were in heavy rotation [[Would I Love You, Third Finger, Left Hand, It's A Good Feeling I'll Turn To Stone, I Got A Feeling, on and on..) and thegreat Harvey Holiday hosted a 5-hour live all Motown show every Monday night from 7pm - 12am.

That was living! Circa 1985-1995.

Great thread Golden Gary!!!! This is one of the things I miss the most about being new to Motown- the thrill of it all being fresh, exciting and so brand new. Those moments of discovery. One of the best moments I vividly recall is when I heard this record on the radio, on The Saturday Dusties Show; I was 14. I had this feeling that this was a Motown record, but I wasn't quite sure. I kept listening and then it happened: I heard this ultra familiar drum riff that only happened on Motown records: a hit to the snare, immediately followed up by a punctuating hit to the tom- TICK/BOOM! Then i JUST KNEW IT WAS A MOTOWN RECORD!!!!! That was Stevie Wonder's "Hey Love." That record is an excellent example of the drum pattern I just described because it opens with that riff and then it crops up all over the place forever after.

That really was a moment of pure exhilaration because I felt like I was becoming a Motown Authority; I was starting to be able to identify the very specific drum patterns and fills that only Motown had. Even if a record sounded similar to a Motown one, it was the drums that usually became the signpost for me.

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Originally Posted by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance

Great thread Golden Gary!!!! This is one of the things I miss the most about being new to Motown- the thrill of it all being fresh, exciting and so brand new. Those moments of discovery. One of the best moments I vividly recall is when I heard this record on the radio, on The Saturday Dusties Show; I was 14. I had this feeling that this was a Motown record, but I wasn't quite sure. I kept listening and then it happened: I heard this ultra familiar drum riff that only happened on Motown records: a hit to the snare, immediately followed up by a punctuating hit to the tom- TICK/BOOM! Then i JUST KNEW IT WAS A MOTOWN RECORD!!!!! That was Stevie Wonder's "Hey Love." That record is an excellent example of the drum pattern I just described because it opens with that riff and then it crops up all over the place forever after.

That really was a moment of pure exhilaration because I felt like I was becoming a Motown Authority; I was starting to be able to identify the very specific drum patterns and fills that only Motown had. Even if a record sounded similar to a Motown one, it was the drums that usually became the signpost for me.

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Really pleased to hear that you're enjoying this thread, Waiting! Once you fall in love with Motown, it's a joy that keeps on giving and lasts forever! By late 1964, I was coming down off my Philles Records high, only because Phil's latest productions were becoming way too echo-laden and not as thrilling as they once were. Thank Heaven, Motown was right there to catch me from the fall. And those amazing 'catches' were happening fast and furiously! One new hit after another -- thrill after thrill! I can still remember the events of the day when I bought nearly every Motown album and single. Fifty-nine years later, I still think back on those soul-satisfying memories with the same thrill that I experienced back then. To this day, I still feel the same "WOW" factor when I hear some of Motown's previously-unreleased tracks from the vaults -- my favorite being Martha & The Vandellas' "It's Easy To Fall In Love [[With A Guy Like You)". It's like I had a personal link to Motown. They knew me like a book, and went out of their way to bring me musical joy. That effort lasted throughout 1972 until Motown packed up and moved to LA. Even if you were a late bloomer to Motown, Waiting, you still have an opportunity to back up and discover the same thrills that some of us experienced at the time of release.

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Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary

Really pleased to hear that you're enjoying this thread, Waiting! Once you fall in love with Motown, it's a joy that keeps on giving and lasts forever! By late 1964, I was coming down off my Philles Records high, only because Phil's latest productions were becoming way too echo-laden and not as thrilling as they once were. Thank Heaven, Motown was right there to catch me from the fall. And those amazing 'catches' were happening fast and furiously! One new hit after another -- thrill after thrill! I can still remember the events of the day when I bought nearly every Motown album and single. Fifty-nine years later, I still think back on those soul-satisfying memories with the same thrill that I experienced back then. To this day, I still feel the same "WOW" factor when I hear some of Motown's previously-unreleased tracks from the vaults -- my favorite being Martha & The Vandellas' "It's Easy To Fall In Love [[With A Guy Like You)". It's like I had a personal link to Motown. They knew me like a book, and went out of their way to bring me musical joy. That effort lasted throughout 1972 until Motown packed up and moved to LA. Even if you were a late bloomer to Motown, Waiting, you still have an opportunity to back up and discover the same thrills that some of us experienced at the time of release.

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I hear you when you talk about getting that same thrill when hearing the vaulted material. That has been like something of a rebirth of the excitement of discovering "new" Motown. Hey, I have a question for you since you were buying these records when they were new. When buying the albums, on average, did you buy the mono mixes or stereo mixes? I can't recall where I read it, but a recording engineer had commented that you got more money for stereo albums as they were seen as a premium, or words to that effect. I've always been curious about how people viewed stereo LPs vs. mono LPs back then.

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Originally Posted by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance

I hear you when you talk about getting that same thrill when hearing the vaulted material. That has been like something of a rebirth of the excitement of discovering "new" Motown. Hey, I have a question for you since you were buying these records when they were new. When buying the albums, on average, did you buy the mono mixes or stereo mixes? I can't recall where I read it, but a recording engineer had commented that you got more money for stereo albums as they were seen as a premium, or words to that effect. I've always been curious about how people viewed stereo LPs vs. mono LPs back then.

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When given a choice, I always bought the MONO LP version which usually cost $2.99 and then, later, $3.99. The STEREO version always cost $1.00 more than MONO, although I don't recall the record stores nor the record departments of 5 & dime stores offering a STEREO version of Motown LPs -- at least not when MONO versions were available. By 1968, however, only the STEREO versions were available, as Motown reached a point whereby MONO versions were no longer released.

Waiting, in addition to my previous post, it's a good thing that only Mono Motown albums were available to me before 1968 when Stereo became the norm. When I heard the Stereo mixes in later years, I was shocked to hear how some of my favorite moments in Motown tracks were ruined in Stereo:

1) The handclaps in the Mono version of Marvin Gaye & Kim Weston's "What Good Am I Without You" were completely removed in the Stereo version.

2) The beautiful string passages in the Mono version of Marvin Gaye's "Little Darling [[I Need You)" were totally and unceremoniously stripped in the Stereo version. As someone recently mentioned, listening to its remains is nearly unbearable.

3) The Mono LP version of The Marvelettes" "The Hunter Gets Captured By The Game" contains an additional verse immediately after the Instrumental break in which Wanda sings, "Every day things change, and some old ideas give way to some new. Some new ideas are strange like the new idea of me being caught by you." For some strange reason known only to Motown, that additional verse was deleted for the Stereo version.

4) As everyone surely knows by now, the Mono version of Martha & The Vandellas' "Watchout" LP boasted the hit single, dotted-eights shuffle-beat version of "Jimmy Mack", whereas the Stereo version of "Watchout" contained an entirely different, earlier recording of "Jimmy Mack" which was much slower and lackluster by comparison.

5) Mary Wells' "Vintage Stock" LP in Mono contained an exciting version of "Honey Boy" -- complete with echoed handclaps, whereas the Stereo version eliminated them.

6) The Mono version of Martha & The Vandellas' "Quicksand" contained a drum break that's HOT and echo-laden; that same drum break in Stereo sounds weak and disappointing.

7) Finally, the Stereo version of Martha & The Vandellas "Heat Wave" and "I'm Ready For Love" add an extra line or two to the Instrumental breaks which I, personally, find annoying. If other fans like it, that's perfectly fine. It just kind of rubs me the wrong way, which is why alternate versions of Motown recordings oftentimes annoy me for the same reasons. Hearing my favorite singers change the phrasing from that which I've known and loved for 60 years is somewhat unsettling.

There are even more differences between Motown's Mono and Stereo versions. At the moment, those listed above are all that come to mind.

PS: Waiting, I just thought of another difference between Motown's Mono & Stereo versions, and this one is not a complaint! The Supremes "Going Down For The Third Time" [[B-side of "Reflections" 45 and taken from "The Supremes Sing HDH" LP. The difference between the two versions is that the music is different AND the back-up vocals are different beween the two, yet they're both hot! I cannot choose a favorite because I love 'em both!

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Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary

Waiting, in addition to my previous post, it's a good thing that only Mono Motown albums were available to me before 1968 when Stereo became the norm. When I heard the Stereo mixes in later years, I was shocked to hear how some of my favorite moments in Motown tracks were ruined in Stereo:

1) The handclaps in the Mono version of Marvin Gaye & Kim Weston's "What Good Am I Without You" were completely stripped in the Stereo version.

2) The beautiful string passages in the Mono version of Marvin Gaye's "Little Darling [[I Need You)" were totally and unceremoniously stripped in the Stereo version. As someone recently mentioned, listening to its remains is nearly unbearable.

3) The Mono LP version of The Marvelettes" "The Hunter Gets Captured By The Game" contains an additional verse immediately after the Instrumental break in which Wanda sings, "Every day things change, and some old ideas give way to some new. Some new ideas are strange like the new idea of me being caught by you." For some strange reason known only to Motown, that additional verse was deleted for the Stereo version.

4) As everyone surely knows by now, the Mono version of Martha & The Vandellas' "Watchout" LP boasted the hit single, dotted-eights shuffle-beat version of "Jimmy Mack", whereas the Stereo version of "Watchout" contained an entirely different, earlier recording of "Jimmy Mack" which was much slower and lackluster by comparison.

5) Mary Wells' "Vintage Stock" LP in Mono contained an exciting version of "Honey Boy" -- complete with echoed handclaps, whereas the Stereo version eliminated them.

6) The Mono version of Martha & The Vandellas' "Quicksand" contained a drum break that's HOT and echo-laden; that same drum break in Stereo sounds weak and disappointing.

7) Finally, the Stereo version of Martha & The Vandellas "Heat Wave" and "I'm Ready For Love" add an extra line or two to the Instrumental breaks which I, personally, find annoying. If other fans like it, that's perfectly fine. It just kind of rubs me the wrong way, which is why alternate versions of Motown recordings oftentimes annoy me for the same reasons. Hearing my favorite singers change the phrasing from that which I've known and loved for 60 years is somewhat unsettling.

There are even more differences between Motown's Mono and Stereo versions. At the moment, those listed above are all that come to mind.

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Ok, thank you, I appreciate your recollections on buying the mono LPs and how they were priced. Actually, recently we've been talking about the different versions of "Jimmy Mack" and "The Hunter Gets Captured By The Game" and now we're comparing mono and stereo mixes of the Sup's "Reflections" album. I know Motown wasn't the only one who would give you sometimes radically different versions between mixes. Elsewhere on YouTube, I've seen people saying many of the same sorts of comments you made concerning the Monkees' stereo and mono LPs. So I guess this was something found across the industry's album output.

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Originally Posted by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance

Ok, thank you, I appreciate your recollections on buying the mono LPs and how they were priced. Actually, recently we've been talking about the different versions of "Jimmy Mack" and "The Hunter Gets Captured By The Game" and now we're comparing mono and stereo mixes of the Sup's "Reflections" album. I know Motown wasn't the only one who would give you sometimes radically different versions between mixes. Elsewhere on YouTube, I've seen people saying many of the same sorts of comments you made concerning the Monkees' stereo and mono LPs. So I guess this was something found across the industry's album output.

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With only one exception, I don't recall any differences between the Mono & Stereo versions of The Supremes' "Reflections" album. "The Mono 45 and Mono album version of "Forever Came Today" had the back-up vocals enter immediately. When Diana sang, "There you were", the girls immediately chimed in with, "Ooh-wooh-wooh-wooh." In the Stereo version, however, the girls don't come in until the first chorus when Diana sings, "At last...." [[The girls sing, "Ooh at last, at last".) From that point on, the Mono & Stereo versions are identical, at least, to my ears. Any further differences must be subtle.

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Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary

With only one exception, I don't recall any differences between the Mono & Stereo versions of The Supremes' "Reflections" album. "The Mono 45 and Mono album version of "Forever Came Today" had the back-up vocals enter immediately. When Diana sang, "There you were", the girls immediately chimed in with, "Ooh-wooh-wooh-wooh." In the Stereo version, however, the girls don't come in until the first chorus when Diana sings, "At last...." [[The girls sing, "Ooh at last, at last".) From that point on, the Mono & Stereo versions are identical, at least, to my ears. Any further differences must be subtle.

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No, not many differences and yet I don't believe this was merely a fold-down mix. The biggest difference is with "Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart"; that one features a truly pre '68 mono mix: big, loud, thunderous sound with a tad bit of reverb. I believe the mono mix of "Then", while not sounding much different from the stereo mix runs a couple of seconds longer on the fade out. Oddly, I'm [[gasp) enjoying the totally unnecessary "Up, Up and Away," and the even more space-wasting "What The World Needs Now" in their mono mixes. Or it could be that because I've been totally immersed in this album for the last month, miraculously, after some 4 decades of hating it, I now actually am enjoying it from start to finish.

Miracles do happen.

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Originally Posted by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance

No, not many differences and yet I don't believe this was merely a fold-down mix. The biggest difference is with "Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart"; that one features a truly pre '68 mono mix: big, loud, thunderous sound with a tad bit of reverb. I believe the mono mix of "Then", while not sounding much different from the stereo mix runs a couple of seconds longer on the fade out. Oddly, I'm [[gasp) enjoying the totally unnecessary "Up, Up and Away," and the even more space-wasting "What The World Needs Now" in their mono mixes. Or it could be that because I've been totally immersed in this album for the last month, miraculously, after some 4 decades of hating it, I now actually am enjoying it from start to finish.

Miracles do happen.

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I have a mono copy of the Reflections album. and although I've only heard some of the tracks in both mono and stereo, every one that I've heard in both formats sounds as though it has separate mono and stereo mixes.

The three singles are all distinctly different in mono and stereo, and "Bah Bah Bah" has a wonderfully weird mono mix. Listen to the stereo mix and suddenly we hear cellos and some clarity to everything that, IMO, slightly lessens the impact of the track's weirdness. Was that track recorded in the same session as "Reflections"?

Also, I suspect that most, if not all of the rest of the tracks on the mono album are genuine mono mixes as they have that sound about them in the way that they're mixed, including the relative balances of levels between vocals and backing, the level and presentation of the drums, and the overall style of EQ used including how Diana's lead vocals are blended into the mono "picture".

I've owned and enjoyed this album since 1970, especially the A-side and the non-cover B-side tracks, having paid a huge 17.5p [[!!!) equivalent for it.

Finally, is it me or is Uriel Jones all over many of the Detroit tracks on this album, including the title track?

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Originally Posted by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance

No, not many differences and yet I don't believe this was merely a fold-down mix. The biggest difference is with "Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart"; that one features a truly pre '68 mono mix: big, loud, thunderous sound with a tad bit of reverb. I believe the mono mix of "Then", while not sounding much different from the stereo mix runs a couple of seconds longer on the fade out. Oddly, I'm [[gasp) enjoying the totally unnecessary "Up, Up and Away," and the even more space-wasting "What The World Needs Now" in their mono mixes. Or it could be that because I've been totally immersed in this album for the last month, miraculously, after some 4 decades of hating it, I now actually am enjoying it from start to finish.

Miracles do happen.

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Waiting, you really used to hate The Supremes "Reflections" album? For me, Side 1 was pretty much perfect in every way. In addition to the three hit singles, I absolutely LOVE "I Can't Make It Alone." Side 2, however, was weakened by the lackluster cover of "What The World Needs Now Is Love", which [[I'll never understand why) Motown considered releasing as a single -- despite Dionne Warwick's already having had a much better hit version with it. "Up, Up And Away" is actually very pretty, thanks to the girls' harmonies. I love "Love Makes Me Do Foolish Things" and also 'Then", but I'm not crazy about "Misery Makes It's Home...", and I especially dislike "Ode To Billy Joe". [[Gag me!) Diana does a fine enough job with it, but the song itself is about as Motown-ish as the man in the moon. [[And, I remember -- all too well -- how Bobbie Gentry's version on the radio seemed to drone on and on foreverI!) I would have much preferred replacing The Supremes' "Misery" and "Ode" with "Wish I Knew" and "Sweet Thing".

I've gotta admit, I never noticed that some of those Side 2 tracks on the Stereo album are in Mono.

BTW, Waiting, since you brought it up, would you please explain what you mean by a "fold-down mix". I've seen you and others mention it before, but I've never really understood what you meant by it.

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Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary

Waiting, you really used to hate The Supremes "Reflections" album?

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I didn't hate it so much as I just didn't like it very much. I like "Reflections," "Bah-Bah-Bah," and "Old To Billie Joe" and that was just about it. I didn't even get into "Then" or "Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart" because they just didn't sound like they fit. I think a lot of the issue I had was that I was a teenager expecting another "Sing HDH" or something like the Four Tops' "Reach Out"- or any album from Motown circa 1967. I wanted "THE MOTOWN SOUND- Detroit" and this album wasn't it.

Funnily enough, my opinions really only started to change after I joined this forum. I read all these opinions about the album; many chimed in who heard interesting things among the songs that I didn't notice. Reading those positive things, I started playing the album again. I think most importantly were the ones who were viewing and hearing this album as Motown LA Sunshine Pop. That was the key, having the forum members providing a sort of framework to tie it all together, or saying, this isn't Motown Music, but rather Motown Sunshine Pop, very much like what was happening on Pop radio at the time.

Another thing, I have a friend who is all about Rock music, and I mean bands like Yes, Pink Floyd, The Who- so it was really unexpected when he called me one day to tell ask me about "Forever Came Today." He had heard it played on one of our local stations and he was absolutely mesmerized by it. This is a guy who knows music- he reads music, he knows music theory, he writes and plays esoteric rock compositions, so when he started dissecting "Forever" and raving about it that just blew me away because he absolutely loves it! So all these things together, it was like The Maker was saying: "THOU SHALL REASSESS THE REFLECTIONS ALBUM!"

And it was all good.

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Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary

... would you please explain what you mean by a "fold-down mix". I've seen you and others mention it before, but I've never really understood what you meant by it.

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As I understand it, a "fold down mix" is one where you take a stereo mix and merely combine both channels into one mono mix. There is no dedicated session to take the basic tracks to craft and specific and unique mono mix. Probably the easiest way to describe it is what you'd get if you played a stereo album on a turntable that only plays in mono- the audio system merely funnels left and right channel though both speakers simultaneously.

Did I just make that even more confusing?????

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Originally Posted by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance

Another thing, I have a friend who is all about Rock music, and I mean bands like Yes, Pink Floyd, The Who- so it was really unexpected when he called me one day to tell ask me about "Forever Came Today." He had heard it played on one of our local stations and he was absolutely mesmerized by it. This is a guy who knows music- he reads music, he knows music theory, he writes and plays esoteric rock compositions, so when he started dissecting "Forever" and raving about it that just blew me away because he absolutely loves it! So all these things together, it was like The Maker was saying: "THOU SHALL REASSESS THE REFLECTIONS ALBUM!"

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I remember an interview with Lamont Dozier [or Brian Holland] who said Forever Came Today was either the song/recording he was most proud of or his favorite. [Sorry that I can't recall the details more clearly, but maybe someone on SDF can].

I was surprised because Forever Came Today was such a departure from the Supremes previous singles and it had to grow on me in 1968.

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Originally Posted by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance

As I understand it, a "fold down mix" is one where you take a stereo mix and merely combine both channels into one mono mix. There is no dedicated session to take the basic tracks to craft and specific and unique mono mix. Probably the easiest way to describe it is what you'd get if you played a stereo album on a turntable that only plays in mono- the audio system merely funnels left and right channel though both speakers simultaneously.

Did I just make that even more confusing?????

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If you say "fold-down" instead of "fold-down mix" then it's more accurate, as there's no mixing involved. It refers to the stereo mix being reduced [[folded) down to mono and, probably, being given a bit of EQ and compression during final mastering.

The mono single version of "What Does It Take [[To Win Your Love)" by Junior Walker and The All Stars was such a fold-down.

My guess is that when the stereo mix was created, which was after Motown had stopped releasing mono albums, the mixing engineer kept in mind that some people would still have to listen to the stereo album track in mono [[on gramophones and radios) and, therefore, made sure that the mix would survive such a fold-down process without sounding horrible as a result. In fact, the mix was so good that a dedicated mono single mix wasn't deemed necessary.

If you fold down the stereo mix of "We Can Work It Out" by Stevie Wonder, however, then the backing vocals all disappear off into the far, echo-y distance as they were mixed to be out of phase which, when heard in stereo, placed them behind the listener. Hence this track needed a separate mono single mix.

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Originally Posted by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance

I didn't hate it so much as I just didn't like it very much. I like "Reflections," "Bah-Bah-Bah," and "Old To Billie Joe" and that was just about it. I didn't even get into "Then" or "Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart" because they just didn't sound like they fit. I think a lot of the issue I had was that I was a teenager expecting another "Sing HDH" or something like the Four Tops' "Reach Out"- or any album from Motown circa 1967. I wanted "THE MOTOWN SOUND- Detroit" and this album wasn't it.

Funnily enough, my opinions really only started to change after I joined this forum. I read all these opinions about the album; many chimed in who heard interesting things among the songs that I didn't notice. Reading those positive things, I started playing the album again. I think most importantly were the ones who were viewing and hearing this album as Motown LA Sunshine Pop. That was the key, having the forum members providing a sort of framework to tie it all together, or saying, this isn't Motown Music, but rather Motown Sunshine Pop, very much like what was happening on Pop radio at the time.

Another thing, I have a friend who is all about Rock music, and I mean bands like Yes, Pink Floyd, The Who- so it was really unexpected when he called me one day to tell ask me about "Forever Came Today." He had heard it played on one of our local stations and he was absolutely mesmerized by it. This is a guy who knows music- he reads music, he knows music theory, he writes and plays esoteric rock compositions, so when he started dissecting "Forever" and raving about it that just blew me away because he absolutely loves it! So all these things together, it was like The Maker was saying: "THOU SHALL REASSESS THE REFLECTIONS ALBUM!"

And it was all good.



As I understand it, a "fold down mix" is one where you take a stereo mix and merely combine both channels into one mono mix. There is no dedicated session to take the basic tracks to craft and specific and unique mono mix. Probably the easiest way to describe it is what you'd get if you played a stereo album on a turntable that only plays in mono- the audio system merely funnels left and right channel though both speakers simultaneously.

Did I just make that even more confusing?????

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I'm glad you've learned to like "Forever Came Today", Waiting. It's one of my favorites on that album. The only part of the song I have a problem with is the middle section in which Diana sings, "As we were standing there, you didn't speak a single word, but your eyes, your eyes said you wanted me. Your touch said you needed me, and my heart said tenderly....". That entire section is one musical chord repeated over and over adnauseum. It's no wonder HDH were pissed when, after leaving Motown, they discovered that Motown had released their unfinished production of "Forever Came Today". Despite that annoying tidbit, I still love that record. I'm curious to know what your friend had to say about that middle section when he dissected it.

Thanks for explaining the "fold-down Mono mix", Waiting. No, you didn't make it more confusing. I understand fully. In fact, it leads me to believe that a half-assed fold-down Mono mix is along the same lines as what they call fake "rechanneled stereo", but in reverse. They cut corners to achieve a quickie version of a Stereo mix, although I would appreciate a quick explanation, if you can, like you explained a fold-down Mono Mix.

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Originally Posted by lucky2012

I remember an interview with Lamont Dozier [or Brian Holland] who said Forever Came Today was either the song/recording he was most proud of or his favorite. [Sorry that I can't recall the details more clearly, but maybe someone on SDF can].

I was surprised because Forever Came Today was such a departure from the Supremes previous singles and it had to grow on me in 1968.

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I remember his saying this. The remarks are in one of the Supremes box sets and at least a couple other places in print. I understand it. You listen to it and you get that they were really going for something brilliant, innovative and most importantly, "Next Level." I also wonder if, given the trio's thorny feelings about how big a role the Funk Brothers played in the success of their records, maybe the guys felt this record would settle the issue once and for all; were the Funk Brothers really all that crucial to the success of HDH's records?

I honestly believe the problem with this record is that had this been recorded by ANYONE else and for any other record company other than Motown, it might have been heard as the masterpiece HDH intended. It really is an exceptional recording. But because it's a Motown/Supremes record, it slogs along with it the pedigree and expectation of every previous Motown hit. As you said, this one really had to grow on me as well and I know it's mainly due to my wanting a signature Detroit Sound, whereas my Rock-loving friend had zero expectations for what a Motown record should sound like. He immediately appreciated "Forever" on its own merits, which he found to be many.

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Originally Posted by Sotosound

If you say "fold-down" instead of "fold-down mix" then it's more accurate, as there's no mixing involved. It refers to the stereo mix being reduced [[folded) down to mono and, probably, being given a bit of EQ and compression during final mastering.

The mono single version of "What Does It Take [[To Win Your Love)" by Junior Walker and The All Stars was such a fold-down.

My guess is that when the stereo mix was created, which was after Motown had stopped releasing mono albums, the mixing engineer kept in mind that some people would still have to listen to the stereo album track in mono [[on gramophones and radios) and, therefore, made sure that the mix would survive such a fold-down process without sounding horrible as a result. In fact, the mix was so good that a dedicated mono single mix wasn't deemed necessary.

If you fold down the stereo mix of "We Can Work It Out" by Stevie Wonder, however, then the backing vocals all disappear off into the far, echo-y distance as they were mixed to be out of phase which, when heard in stereo, placed them behind the listener. Hence this track needed a separate mono single mix.

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Excellent explanation of the fold-down process. I have a rudimentary knowledge of the engineering part of things, but it's VERY rudimentary! When you talk about the backing vocals of "We Can Work It Out" that makes a great point because I know that when I'd wire my speakers a certain way, playing stereo albums was a unique experience; when everything played out of the speakers, it came out somewhat folded down, with anything that was panned left or right being heard equally from both speakers. Anything centered in the stereo mix was cancelled out- often that meant the lead vocals and a few instruments would virtually vanish except for a faint trace of the added reverb being audible.
Reading what you termed as being recorded "out of phase" helps explain why. I don't fully grasp that but I get it enough to that I now know there is a precise reason for this happening.

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Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary

I'm glad you've learned to like "Forever Came Today", Waiting. It's one of my favorites on that album. The only part of the song I have a problem with is the middle section in which Diana sings, "As we were standing there, you didn't speak a single word, but your eyes, your eyes said you wanted me. Your touch said you needed me, and my heart said tenderly....". That entire section is one musical chord repeated over and over adnauseum. It's no wonder HDH were pissed when, after leaving Motown, they discovered that Motown had released their unfinished production of "Forever Came Today". Despite that annoying tidbit, I still love that record. I'm curious to know what your friend had to say about that middle section when he dissected it.

Thanks for explaining the "fold-down Mono mix", Waiting. No, you didn't make it more confusing. I understand fully. In fact, it leads me to believe that a half-assed fold-down Mono mix is along the same lines as what they call fake "rechanneled stereo", but in reverse. They cut corners to achieve a quickie version of a Stereo mix, although I would appreciate a quick explanation, if you can, like you explained a fold-down Mono Mix.

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Ha ha ha! I totally understand why they say art is subjective and not objective! I actually like that middle section. The reason is that my ears hear it as a creating a sort of build up, a rising tension to a crescendo, the "release" of that tension given when everything stops except for vocals and that moody keyboard. Oddly, my friend didn't talk about this part but I think I'll ask his opinion today...

Sotosound provided a great explanation of the fold down process,which actually, as it turns out involves a fair bit more than I originally thought.

The rechanneled stereo thing is just weird to me. I heard it first on the album, "The Original Spinners"/"The Detroit Spinners"; on the stereo version, "That's What Girls Are Made For" is in this form. On the album "Never-Before-Released Masters From Motown's Brightest Stars - The 1960s" [[and isn't this listed in the Guinness Book of World Records for the longest title since forever?)The Marvelettes' "Knock On My Door" I believe is in this same odd-sounding rechanneled stereo.

I think the process is used when the original multi track tapes can't be found or if the song was originally recorded in mono. To me, it sounds like you add a bit of reverb and adjust the EQ to highlight certain frequencies on one channel while on the other channel maybe the EQ is adjusted to highlight yet other frequencies. OR basically, to me it sounds like one side sounds light and bright while the other side sounds blunted and muted!

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Originally Posted by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance

Ha ha ha! I totally understand why they say art is subjective and not objective! I actually like that middle section. The reason is that my ears hear it as a creating a sort of build up, a rising tension to a crescendo, the "release" of that tension given when everything stops except for vocals and that moody keyboard. Oddly, my friend didn't talk about this part but I think I'll ask his opinion today...

Sotosound provided a great explanation of the fold down process,which actually, as it turns out involves a fair bit more than I originally thought.

The rechanneled stereo thing is just weird to me. I heard it first on the album, "The Original Spinners"/"The Detroit Spinners"; on the stereo version, "That's What Girls Are Made For" is in this form. On the album "Never-Before-Released Masters From Motown's Brightest Stars - The 1960s" [[and isn't this listed in the Guinness Book of World Records for the longest title since forever?)The Marvelettes' "Knock On My Door" I believe is in this same odd-sounding rechanneled stereo.

I think the process is used when the original multi track tapes can't be found or if the song was originally recorded in mono. To me, it sounds like you add a bit of reverb and adjust the EQ to highlight certain frequencies on one channel while on the other channel maybe the EQ is adjusted to highlight yet other frequencies. OR basically, to me it sounds like one side sounds light and bright while the other side sounds blunted and muted!

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I've been there and heard that. Fake Stereo sounds horrible! Thank Heaven, to my knowledge, Motown has never resorted to that.

Ya know, once they learned what they were doing, Motown's Stereo mixes were really quite impressive. The worst Stereo mix I ever heard and cringed over was the Four Tops' "Reach Out" album. It was dreadful! But the CD mixes proved that somebody was able to correct it, as the Stereo mixes on that album are much improved and most enjoyable!

Yes, Waiting, please do ask your friend about that middle part of "Forever Came Today". I agree with you that the tension is building and climaxes into Diana's plea to her "Darling, ooh my darling, make me yours." If only they had added an extra chord to make it sound like an emotional crescendo instead of sounding like the needle was stuck on that one chord!

But, as I said, I adore "Forever Came Today". Always have and always will, despite that one imperfection.

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Originally Posted by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance

I remember his saying this. The remarks are in one of the Supremes box sets and at least a couple other places in print. I understand it. You listen to it and you get that they were really going for something brilliant, innovative and most importantly, "Next Level." I also wonder if, given the trio's thorny feelings about how big a role the Funk Brothers played in the success of their records, maybe the guys felt this record would settle the issue once and for all; were the Funk Brothers really all that crucial to the success of HDH's records?

I honestly believe the problem with this record is that had this been recorded by ANYONE else and for any other record company other than Motown, it might have been heard as the masterpiece HDH intended. It really is an exceptional recording. But because it's a Motown/Supremes record, it slogs along with it the pedigree and expectation of every previous Motown hit. As you said, this one really had to grow on me as well and I know it's mainly due to my wanting a signature Detroit Sound, whereas my Rock-loving friend had zero expectations for what a Motown record should sound like. He immediately appreciated "Forever" on its own merits, which he found to be many.

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Thanks for remembering. Was it Lamont Dozier? I get it now that HDH were going for something new & innovative, but I was a youngster then. [So many things I finally get now that I'm old :rolleyes:.]
Now, I think it should have followed Reflections instead of In and Out of Love. I know now that HDH were upset that Motown released their recording unfinished by them. [Think of how the recording would have sounded!] I didn't know HDH had some feelings about the Funk Brothers role in their success. That should have been disproved by Love Is Here and Now You're Gone, a #1 hit that HDH were also justifiably very proud of.

Also, you're right that FCT could very well have been very successful by artists or even labels other than the Supremes or Motown. I'm now not surprised that your rock fan friend loved what he heard. In 1968 I only loved The Motown Sound and the Supremes/HDH hits legacy.