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A reply in the Color My World Blue thread gave me an idea for another thread. What are some of the Supremes performances [[or even Ross solo, Wilson solo, FLOs) performances that were impacted by wearing old out of date gowns of another era?
I'll start with this--I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do the Walking in GIT/Farewell gowns:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzbZbZ4oC5c
i wouldn't limit it to the "old" gowns as i wasn't as bothered by that as some others. But i would position it as "the wrong gowns"
I'd put the HMM performance on Tonight Show right up that as one of the biggest tv flops in the group's history. too much choreography, the dumb "fighting" routine between the girls bout who's man he is, and those massive gowns that just swallow up any and all intricate choreography.
there's so much 3-part harmony in the song and the Supremes had little to no mainstream public recognition at this point. if they had been able to work at 3 positioned mics and do a bit of subtle, sexy movements and concentrate on really SINGING they could have blown people away.
Wrong gowns would work as well. Though alas I can't edit the thread title.
Another problem with both HMM on Tonight Show and that I'm gonna let my Heart performance on Mike Douglas is the orchestration. The orchestras/bands for Carson and Douglas just can't put across the music as well as what was on the recording. I'm not sure if any of the Supremes' touring band members were playing as part of the performances.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NUdvCpZn5c
This one really took the cake for me. These looked like pajamas while they danced to the funkiest cut of the lp.
These were called cotton candy as I recall. I remember one fan, I think at Disneyworld, made it a point to tell Cindy after the show as they were signing autographs that he didn't like these sets. She nervously started laughing.
"Vintage" DRATS gowns should have been saved for in concert only; TV appearances should have always been new or newer costumes.
Here's another example of the wrong gowns. Mary's wig needs a good brushing too.
https://youtu.be/xUp1ac9iUgc
Sometimes we as fans are too picky. Having said that all DRATS gowns should have been retired by 72. The dresses for the Tonight Show were not bad but Scherrie and Cindy’s gowns should have been closer to Mary’s gown. And for the ones they wore on ST in 75 they should have wore them as dresses and left the pants alone
All DRATS era gowns should have been put to rest by 1972. They could no longer afford Michael Travis by 1971 and then began to work for Michael Nicola. They tried a series of different designers in 1972-1973 before settling on Pat Campano who did a vast majority of designs until the group's disbanding. Unfortunately the girls weren't in sync with the times and Mary has said herself she was afraid to change their look because of how much they were part of the group's image. Wearing the DRATS era gowns was a way to get more bang for their buck. Mary was even wearing some into the 80s which was another big mistake. The constant wearing, amending and hemming, etc. greatly deteriorated their condition. To see them today, you can see how beat up they were. The original trio never wore their gowns for no more than a year or two, but this had more to do with their rapid changing style and success. The gowns from pre-1968 have held up in better shape.
Yes those are awful. In the sketches they don’t look quite as bad. But they used such thick and heavy material! Maybe if the material had been light and billowy.Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan
There are some pics of the girls just in the dress part. No pants. Better but still not great
We do have to admit that the girls were somewhat in a no win situation.
The MJL lineup tried some new stills. Some things less vegasy. But we all complained about how unSupremes they looked. Like the floral gowns at Coconut Grove. Or the chiffon Kate Smith special outfits
Brad are these MJL gowns in Mary’s collection? Since you’ve had experience w her collection was wondering what they looked like in person
Does anyone have any explanation or theories as to what happened to all the dresses from the dmf era ?
Supposedly they were being stored in Detroit. Not sure if at the larger downtown Motown offices or where exactly. But most just walked away, were lost. They really weren’t too concerned w keeping a lot of the older ones since they were cheaper and sort of out of date. They weren’t going to use them any more so why keep them?Quote:
Originally Posted by nomis
Here’s another one that might raise some eyebrows lol
While the dress isn’t ugly it does seem out of place
The yellow gowns from Itching on Sullivan. They’re singing one of the best dance songs they ever did. Such a youthful and exciting song. And they’re wear dresses that look like something Lady Bird Johnson would have worn. With that shoulder sash lol
Do you all ever think about the time period [[ the 60's) for an African American group, they all dressed up in gowns and suits during that period so the yellow gowns and and Itchin In My Heart and More was appropriate for the Sullivan show. I do agree a lot of the 60's gowns should have ben retired but there overall look wasn't too bad in my opinion during the 70's and those floral dresses that JML wore, I loved them
But the Sullivan recording just doesn't have the bass and fire of the studio version..when I got the Ed Sullivan DVD box set and finally saw this performance I was a little disappointed..it just doesn't capture the funk brothers sound..plus Diana's missing tooth really annoys me lolQuote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
But that is the entire point: the juxtaposition of their sophisticated evening gown look with their funky upbeat kids-loving hits. Appeals to both the parents watching, who would go on to pay high prices to see them in nightclubs, and the kids watching, who would go on to buy the record.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
Berry Gordy is a very smart man.
yeah i get the juxtaposition. i just think other outfits were more becoming. the silver gowns for YCHL were amazing and high couture. but the yellow Itchin gowns were IMO matronly.Quote:
Originally Posted by grangertim
I attended all 8 shows of Jean, Mary and Lynda at Magic Mt in August 1973, which turned out to be Jean and Lynda's farewell. I was taking pics in front of the stage and then moved to the side of the stage. They were wearing the Queen Mother gowns and Jean had this huge threat sticking out her butt.Quote:
Originally Posted by bradsupremes
This is a story that several claim they know, but honestly it’s a huge puzzle and until all the pieces are together will we really know. Mary was told one thing, Al Abrams told me a theory about what he thinks happened, I’ve heard other various stories but no one has been able to nail down a definitive story of events. I do know the Motown Museum has quite a bit of them - some gowns as early as 1964 and not seen by the public since they were last worn in the 60s. Despite Mary’s pleas and requests in wanting to know what they had and wanting to collaborate and work together to track down missing gowns, they never told her what they had. Mary was less interested in getting them back into her collection, but wanted to know where they were and willing to work on having them in her exhibit. A lot could have been done if there was more cooperation. I honestly don’t think the museum is fully aware of what they have and what’s missing. I am aware of several sets in the collection of others and they have never given me an answer as to how they obtained them. I usually got shut down when I got to that question. In all my work for Mary, this was the biggest goose chase that yielded more questions than answers.Quote:
Originally Posted by nomis
So in short to your question, no one truly knows at this moment. We know of the whereabouts of some but not all. There are even gowns from the DMC and 70s era that have gone “missing.”
that's wild Brad!! i find it a bit surprising that the Motown Museum was so reluctant to collaborate with her. unless there was just too much bad blood? seems a bit silly after all these years. most museums are in the practice of loaning out their things, at least some of their collections. if nothing else, they would charge for it and get some % of the proceeds from the tour.Quote:
Originally Posted by bradsupremes
but at least that does provide a bit of assurance that at least a lot of these older ones are accounted for. as opposed to floating around in some random Goodwill Store in Detroit.
wasn't it the white fringe JMC pantsuits from Andy Williams that disappeared? i heard the story was they were at a designer for clearing or for repairs and just walked away.
oh and Brad - i still wish y'all had figured out that fire red "all in one" dress from MSS at Caesar's lolol. all of us are just so intrigued by that infamous get up! even just a few pics to see the color and pattern
also didn't you say there was a lot more content prepared for the Gown book? but cut by the editors?
Actually those panchos were baby blue and they perished in the Mexico fire as did the Chandeliers, the blue/green/silver sets from Sullivan, the gold gowns from the cover of Right On and a few more. Some that burned [[tropical lilacs, the new Pat Campanos) were duplicatedQuote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
I have to agree about HMM on Tonight. The group is just out of time. The last years were marked by, as I have said before, flailin' and wailin'.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
That Tonight Show appear is nerve wracking. The gowns were so low cut that at one point toward the end, the choregraphy was such that I was afraid a boob or two would pop out.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony
Or how about the American Bandstand performance of This Is Why. They’re in the lavender sequin tops and black pants from back of the Touch lp. Mary is NOT wearing a bra. And even though her shirt is buttoned up I was afraid she was gonna give herself a black eye!!Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spreadinglove21
I believe the majority of the television appearances visually worked contrary to the promotion of the new group. I understand how Mary felt, she told me how she felt, I very very very casually mentioned a couple times slightly questioning using the old gowns and perhaps getting some thing that looked more like Labelle. I was a kid and I was afraid to step on any toes and ruin my ability to speak to the girls, but I knew how awful it was and I knew what everybody was saying. There was often tension in the group, Mary was on edge a lot , of course at the time I didn’t know about the pressure she was under with Pedro, Motown and finances. Most of the younger people didn’t really care about the Supremes anymore. They’re affinities moved on to newer more modern groups. I don’t know if using the old gowns and a lot of the new gowns were 100% responsible, but I do think if they had a definite look and style that was more mid 70s, they would’ve been taken more seriously on television. I agree with you the black gowns were disastrous. And often times it look like the gowns were wearing the girls and not the other way around. Most of the 70s Supremes lacked glamour and did not look right in the old gowns. I think a lot more about this now that Mary is gone for whatever reason.
I like the gowns on the tonight show I just hated the choreography so much and the entire act, that it made the gowns look distracting. Most of the performances of his my man are very difficult to watch
but there are TV appearances that I think are hurt by what diana ross wears as well. The ridiculous buffoonery of dance 10 looks three still haunts me. Her appearance on the tonight show singing let’s go up in that matronly suit still gives me the creeps when I see it. I could see her slipping away with appearances like that and a Succession of poor single releases. Both I’ve heard stents hosting the American music awards were wasted by many changes of unremarkable outfits. She was now stuck in the time warp The Supremes were stuck in 10 years earlier and they both wound up in the same place.
Fascinating..thanks BradQuote:
Originally Posted by bradsupremes
great assessmentQuote:
Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac
there was a quote or story [[i think from Luther Vandross?) where everyone would be eagerly anticipating the Supremes next tv appearance and "what would they be wearing!!" and then the Reflections DVD with the subtext turned on, they describe the YCHL segment on Sullivan and how it was almost shocking! the girls first big appearance in truly glamorous high-fashion outfits, their mod wigs.
that's what was missing in the 70s. with the MJC lineup you sort of this. but in the 60s, both D and M were so fashion conscience. Flo was too, to some degree. As was Cindy. In the 70s, there are times jean seems totally into the look and comes across amazing and fierce. like her expression in the closeup pic in the pink feathers at the bottom of the NW cover. but other times she seemed to just sort of be wearing the outfits.
And at first, the 70s pantsuits were great. the pink ones on Glenn CAmpbell. the green fringe. the Central Park mini dresses were sensational too.
I think had they done the afro cover of NW and maybe a big tv appearance in a similar look you would have had an OMG moment like the YCHL one
I will say that Mary wasn't the only one who had difficulty in finding out what artifacts the museum had in its possession.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
The Hair parody three-in-one dress was to be photographed for the book, but none of us could figure out how it fit. At one point, Mary threw it back into its box saying "We didn't know how it worked then and we don't know how it works now."
As for the fire that damaged several sets of gowns, I will say that there were several sets assumed to have been destroyed in the fire, but weren't listed on the insurance form for damages. So that raises a series of questions of what happened to them.
Like I said, there are more questions than answers.
the fan rumors are that 9 sets of gowns were lost in the fire. but to be honest, that seems that a huge amount for the girls to be traveling with. I thought that i'd heard that while touring, they would have 5 or 6 sets with them, and sets would be going back and forth. and this was during their heyday too. when they were on the road constantly. in 74 they weren't on the road nearly as much. i think they flew in for these dates and then home. so i don't know that they would have needed 9+ sets. but that's just my opinionQuote:
Originally Posted by bradsupremes
This set of gowns is interesting in that they were a DMF set that were used well in 68 or even 69. There are a lot of pics of DMF in them but little to none used in official ways. Just those Topps cardboard 45s. No album cover. No tv appearance [[that we know of). But seems like the girls liked them since they kept wearing them
Attachment 19633
Many years later, a photo from this session was used as the album cover for a hits collection on the Kelo label. And of course, a photo was used on the cd and vinyl versions of their LOST AND FOUND collection.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
The only reasoning I can think of is that Scherrie was brand new to the group and they didn't have much time for wardrobe fittings, so they just packed a bunch of gowns and hoped for the best.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
Does anyone know much about this fire? Was it just in the dressing room? Or in the entire building? What caused the fire? Were the Supremes able to still perform the next day? Or was the engagement cancelled?
Probably one of their first "grown up" gowns.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
I would also love to know any details about the fire as wellQuote:
Originally Posted by marybrewster
It was a dressing room fire. I can't remember the cause. I don't believe I found it in the insurance papers. Mary did have photos for the insurance company of the damage and at least half of the dressing room was destroyed by fire and smoke damage all throughout. The fire did appear to be along the wall where the clothing racks were kept.
There were several newer gowns by Pat Campano that were simply recreated. A few were salvageable and needed additional restoration work. The others were lost. There is a set or two that were believed to have been destroyed in the fire, but they're not listed in insurance damages form and they aren't in Mary's collection which leaves the question... where are they?
I think the fire was confined to the backstage area of the arena they were performing in. That is how I remember it anyway from one of Randy's newsletters. Scherrie once said when she got the call from Mary she was crying but that they initially thought it was a small fire with smoke damage to the gowns. When the ladies got to the venue, an entire wall was gone and much of the dressing room was in cinders. I seem to remember they went onstage that night but only had a couple gowns to choose from. Pat Campano had to redesign his first two sets of gowns, the red fringe from Sonny and Cher and the black and silver silhouette gowns. If you look closely there are some differences in the re-design from the originals.Quote:
Originally Posted by nomis
This booking seemed to have a pall over it. Shortly before, or maybe it was right after the fire, the ladies did a photo shoot in the mountains of Mx wearing the black jumpsuits with feathers. There was no dressing room there of course but as they were getting back into their clothes after the shoot they found that the wind had blown their street clothes all over the mountain. LOL
I think the reason for the unusual number of old gowns on this date was not that Scherrie was new, they had had many fittings. They wanted to see what worked well between all three ladies for entire performances. Many of the gowns were used for guest spots and so forth and most were rarely used for full performances. Jean had said gowns like the green TCB and the pink feathers halters were very difficult to do an entire show in.
interesting about the type of work for different gowns. yeah i can see that the pink feathers would be more constraining than a pantsuit. in Mary's book she mentions that some outfits were quite hot too.Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan
and you're right - doing a sting on a tv show, you might be in the gown for 1 or 2 songs and some short banter with the host. plus you're positioned on a set, specific stage directions regarding overall movement and all, then back to the dressing room and you're done. but a concert is an hour, you're walking all over the stage PLUS doing the choreography. much more movement
having watched a lot of Project Runway, i remember a few episodes where they brought in guests from the music industry and the designers have to come up with a design idea. there's a lot to consider about what will read well on the stage, dealing with movement and choreography, etc. I wonder if that was often a determining factor with some of the gowns we've seen through the years but only rarely. like the big floral gowns from MJL, some of the gowns DMF wore that came from Saks or the blue Copa gowns, some of the Scherrie era gowns.
Like the red mini dresses from MSC on Sonny & Cher - those long beaded fringe arms were getting all tangled up. or the silhouette gowns from MSC too and how they came with feather wraps for the hems, feather stoles, etc. on paper that sounds great - lots of potential ways to redo the outfit. but if you're doing an hour show on stage, how cumbersome is it to have some big old feather wrap attached to the bottom of your gown??
And Brad - was it you the mentioned the photo shoots with MJC and designer? there are these pics of the girls in the peach gowns and him in the photo [[he's kissing mary's shoulder). and the MJC photos in those blue overall shorts. You'd mentioned that sometimes outfits were designed for the girls not so much for them to wear long-term on the stage but more for a photo session and to give notice to the designer. more like a fashion spread versus something they were going to use