Los Angeles soul

Not a Detroit post but given the Motown links to LA, I hope this is ok to post here.
I have a special birthday next year and a special Wedding anniversary so my wife and i are planning a 'once in a lifetime' trip from UK to California.
Obviously we will tread the standard tourist routes over three weeks taking in LA/SF/Death Valley and reaching out to Las Vegas and Grand Canyon.
I also would like to spend some days taking in the LA soul scene from a 60s perspective.
with this in mind, i am looking for addresses of Motown offices in LA, studios they would have used and other Motown related places. Also knowing that many of the Motown LA based artists had careers before/after Motown, any details on their haunts/studios would be useful [[e.g. Ed Cobb, Gloria Jones, Willie Hutch and the like). I understood that Marvin Gaye had his own studio in LA as well. Also the Northern Soul scene embraces Mirwood so some information on this is sought. I can't find much written work on the subject unlike Detroit/Memphis/Chicago so i'm struggling to start.
I also would plan to visit vinyl record shops so any tips on those specialising in soul 45s would be appreciated.
if there are any articles or books on the subjects that i could be referred to, this would also be very welcome.
Thanks for any assistance that you can give.

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Sorry that you're doing so poorly at getting information on this thread. If I had seen this thread in 1976, I probably could have answered several of your questions. But, now that I am going senile, and even losing a fair amount of long-term memory, I'm pretty much useless on this one. Since 1980, I have worked mostly in The Middle East [[through 1985) and in Holland, Germany, Denmark and Sweden since then. I don't remember much about USA now, and don't pay attention to what's going on there even when I'm there.

But, as I worked at Motown in the 1970s, I still DO remember that they were located in a tall skyscraper on Sunset Blvd in Hollywood [[6255 W. Sunset Blvd., to be exact). They used a fair amount of different recording studios both in North Hollywood [[San Fernando Valley), and in Hollywood. But I don't remember which ones. Most of them probably don't exist now. At Airwave Records, I remember us using Artie Ripp's studio in North Hollywood, a fair amount. but, I don't even remember its name, or address. To be honest, I only live about 3 months per year in USA [[L.A.) now, and don't go ANYWHERE but my sister's house, outside my own between arriving at LAX and leaving again. I have NO IDEA what exists in L.A, now, including record shops.

I used to know the Hollywood studios producers like Ed Cobb and his contemporaries used, but don't anymore. They probably don't exist anymore, in any case. I worked in South L.A., and knew all the record stores, Dolphin's of Hollywood [[Central & Vernon, Manchester & Broadway, Crenshaw Blvd), Flash Records, [[Vernon & Central, Adams and Western), Sam's records, Pat's Records, Crain's Records, Wenzel's Music Town. I knew the clubs [[Californian Club, Dick Barnett's Guys and Dolls, Dootone Music Center. I was friendly with Gloria Jones, who was a good friend of one of my partners at Airwave Records. She lived in Beverlywood, fairly close to me. But I've lost touch with her.

Steve Propes wrote a book or two on L.A. R&B/Soul. But, I don't know if he discussed recording studios, record distributors and the like. There used to be Record merchandising on West 9th Street near Vermont Avenue. But, I'm sure it's long gone.

I really doubt that there'd be much left to see making pilgrimage to various old sites in L.A.'s 1960s Soul history. Virtually ALL those buildings are probably gone.

Sorry I couldn't help much. I'll be curious to read what any responders write on this subject. It may bring back some memories.

Hi Robb, thanks for coming back with so much detail. Remembering precise details after such a long time is never easy. The LA soul scene really does seem underrepresented in what is documented and how it is perceived today, I suppose it is hidden behind big shadows in the whole west coast 60s Rock scene and the soul world dominated by Detroit, Chicago and Memphis as it was at the time.
Your memories are precious because they give me a place to start in at least pinning down the offices and the area of North Hollywood. There are several leads which will occupy me in the long winter nights planning my trip.
Obviously Motown in LA was a different animal to the Detroit set-up and not so tied to specific buildings. so to build a picture is not so easy
A friend is giving me access to his collection of some Mowest documentation from the day which he describes as general office documentation. From there addresses and names are sure to come to provide other leads.
Another source I'm using is Northern soul 45s from the time where the smaller companies records frequently put an address on the label of the 45.
As you say these places most likely won't exist any more But to document them at least and seeing what is there today on the Internet will give other avenues to explore.
It's a labour of love but I think it's worthwhile as a part of the heritage of the music. Also it's great fun visiting these places today even if they have changed hands or been knocked down and replaced. Talking to the people who occupy them today can throw up some incredible stories as I've found in similar pilgrimages to Detroit in the past.
Any other memories that members may have would also be much appreciated.
Thanks again Robb for your insights.

This link mentions a number of possible places to visit bobkayli ... whether they have much "Soul" is anyone's guess.

http://la.cityvoter.com/poo-bah-record-shop/biz/51798

I spent a couple of days in L.A. some 10 or 12 years back and found a place on Hollywood Boulevard, near The Chinese Theater etc. that was packed out with Soul Vinyl [[got the two Motown Barbara McNair LPs there), but no doubt that is long gone.

Roger

Topic caught my eye and a subject I have some familiarity with...First of all, excellent point that the L.A. pop music scene in the 60's was pretty much dominated by the more Phil Spector, Brian Wilson, Herb Alpert...in other words The Wrecking Crew sound...One can't stress the significance of the musicians and producers in the overall musical output coming out of Los Angeles in that era. IMO, the "Soul Music" scene...short of some early doo-wop in Los Angeles during that period pretty much came down as an offshoot of the Nat King Cole inspired sounds of Sam Cooke, Ray Charles, and a few others...The "real" Soul Music was coming out of the urban areas back east...notably Detroit, Chicago, New York, and Philly, while also sidetracking to the southern sound coming out of Memphis, etc. It really wasn't until two things happened that "Soul" gained a lot of significance in Los Angeles...one was the "funk" inspired music of groups like Sly & The Family Stone, Earth Wind & Fire, and others, combined with the move to Los Angeles of Motown in the early 70's, and a basic retooling of the Motown Sound at that time, coincidentally bringing many Detroit [[and other Midwest and east coast schooled musicians) out to L.A.and even Norman Whitfield with Rose Royce creating the early hip L.A. music sound, add in some Barry White, Ray Parker Jr, etc, that Soul music really started becoming significant in Los Angeles. It was then that L.A. based music execs like Herb Alpert/Jerry Moss, Clive Davis and other pop artists and producers [[as Johnny Rivers had done earlier with the 5th Dimension) jumped into the production of Soul Music artists on a significant scale...Getting the point here???...it was really the musicians that truly influenced the sound... Still, Los Angeles really didn't have much of it's own trademark sound or identity until another phenomenon occurred...SOUL TRAIN...Don Cornelieus literally brought Soul performers to Los Angeles and then got the idea that in addition to just presenting performers, he could actually record and produce them [[Shalimar, The Whispers, etc), and Don having the luxury of a highly popular weekly television show to spotlight and showcase those artists [[especially his own), once again, using largely back east musicians and arrangers to help develop his sound. A sound that came to fruition once he partnered up with Dick Griffey and created SOLAR records, truly meaning...The Sound Of L.A., during the 70's and into the 80's, utilizing R&B, Soul, Funk, and then incorporating the incoming "Disco" sound into their productions with artists like Natalie Cole,Cheryl Lynn Chaka Khan,etc becoming recognizable L.A. based performers, and even bands like The Crusaders who crossed the line from Jazz into the soul genre contributed as well to identifying L.A. as a significant "soul music' center of musical activity...One also cant minimize the point that being the entertainment capital of the world with film and television centered here...that helped bring about the large migration of all sorts of entertainment based performers from Country to Rock & Roll to L.A. from other parts of the country as well...That pretty much lasted into the 80's, until at some point rap and hip-hop came along to a new generation and essentially, at least in my opinion...f*#@& the whole thing up... That's my story in brief...and I'm sticking to it...

To actually ANSWER your question Bobkayli...The Motown offices were at Sunset and Vine in the 1st Interstate Bank Building. It was a large hi-rise office building, and Motown, being a prime tenant had a recognizable sign in front of the building with the Motown name and logo. Motown is likely being run out of Burbank today or some unrecognizable corporate office building, or whatever the location is for whomever owns it's catalogue today. Motowns primary studio [[MoWest) was in West Hollywood on Romaine St off of Santa Monica Blvd. They had two studios [[Sunrise & Sunset) in that facility which I visited on several occassions. That's where Russ Terrana and my brother spent many hours working together...Unlike Detroit in the 60's for example which I'm extremely well familiar with and many small recording companies and studios strictly doing R&B being run out of the basements of jewelry stores, pool halls, and record shops for demo production before they took their material to larger more professional studios...many of which also dedicated largely to R&B stuff as has been featured on this site...that phenomenon really didn't exist much in L.A. to the best of my knowledge, at least not so much as R&B or Soul Music is concerned...You hear many more stories in L.A. of bass legend Joe Osborn discovering The Carpenters and doing their first demo tracks out of a studio he had put together in his garage...Otherwise, I'd actually suggest to you that there are so many other attractions in L.A. and Southern California that you might find more enjoyable, memorable, and worthwhile than looking for pretty much non-existent relics of the past which really have no current identity or meaning...

Attachment 9895
You should try to track down all you can on H.B. Barnum, Jimmy and Ben Gresham, Arthur Wright, James Carmichael, George Motola, Bobby Sanders, Al Capps, Chester and Gary Pipkin, Maxwell Davis, Marshall Leib, Miles Grayson, Lummy Fowler, Anthony Renfro, Arthur Wright, Willie Hutchison, Bob Keane, Barry White, Zeke Strong, Ike Turner, and the other L.A. producers and arrangers, to find out where they hung out, recorded, etc.. But, as stated above, you'd be looking at streetcorners, empty lots and new buildings, rather than looking at the original buildings they occupied. You might be able to find people alive who could tell you something detailed about those days, but they are dying like flies.

As Robb says, many if not most of the Los Angeles stalwarts from the Los Angeles Soul music scene from the 60's, it's heyday in the 70's, and the remnants from the 80's are largely either deceased, have moved on to other genres and disciplines, or are writing memoirs to varying degrees of success. As Robb's list suggests, many of the deceased have largely been unfortunately forgotten. We have been trying for several years, led by former Detroit keyboardist Sylvester Rivers and supported by many prominent L.A. musicians to get the Grammys to posthumously honor the renowned arranger Gene Page, but to no avail thus far. During the 60's and 70's, musicianship and sophisticated arrangements were an integral part of the R&B music productions, particularly out of L.A. where a plethora of great musicians had migrated to. When the whole computerized and highly synthesized music techniques took root in the 80's...many prominent musicians, arrangers, and producers were kicked to the curb in favor of the less sophisticated and cheaper recording and production techniques of electronic musicianship...Some, like my brother [[who did lots of the SOLAR stuff and many Whitfield projects) were able to use that technology and become successful in other genres like television and film, while many others were forced out of the music industry entirely, their former accomplishments remembered only by a few gold records or certificates left hanging on their walls...Even up to recent days...there are only two non music oriented network continuing television series who rely on full studio orchestras on a full time basis versus computerized music backgrounds...those being The Simpsons and Family Guy..a couple of cartoons LOL...That's why I suggest to bobkayli that unless his trip to Los Angeles is going to last for a year or two and he has time for extensive research and travel time, perhaps some other interest of his will be much more satisfying, rewarding, and interesting...There's still a whole lots to do in Southern California for visitors and tourists...

While most of the L.A. Soul music scene may be a thing of the past and have vanished into thin air [[I'm not even aware of any decent clubs where one can hear music from that genre and era), L.A...which has always put on somewhat of a sophisticated air, does feature several good jazz clubs, and you'd be surprised at some of the musicians who did play some of the R&B sessions back in the day have evolved into full time local jazz artists, particularly when they're not performing as backup artists for touring performers. For some really good musicianship, you can check out some jazz clubs like The Baked Potato in Studio City, The Catalina Bar & Grill in Hollywood [[I saw the great Kenny Burrell there a few weeks ago), The Jazz Bakery in Culver City, The Dave Koz Lounge at Spaghettini or H.O.M.E in Beverly Hills, or Herb Alperts fancy restaurant and jazz club in Bel Air... Vibrato Grill Jazz, just to name a few...You'll be sure to hear some real good music...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bobkayli

Hi Robb, thanks for coming back with so much detail. Remembering precise details after such a long time is never easy. The LA soul scene really does seem underrepresented in what is documented and how it is perceived today, I suppose it is hidden behind big shadows in the whole west coast 60s Rock scene and the soul world dominated by Detroit, Chicago and Memphis as it was at the time.
Your memories are precious because they give me a place to start in at least pinning down the offices and the area of North Hollywood. There are several leads which will occupy me in the long winter nights planning my trip.
Obviously Motown in LA was a different animal to the Detroit set-up and not so tied to specific buildings. so to build a picture is not so easy
A friend is giving me access to his collection of some Mowest documentation from the day which he describes as general office documentation. From there addresses and names are sure to come to provide other leads.
Another source I'm using is Northern soul 45s from the time where the smaller companies records frequently put an address on the label of the 45.
As you say these places most likely won't exist any more But to document them at least and seeing what is there today on the Internet will give other avenues to explore.
It's a labour of love but I think it's worthwhile as a part of the heritage of the music. Also it's great fun visiting these places today even if they have changed hands or been knocked down and replaced. Talking to the people who occupy them today can throw up some incredible stories as I've found in similar pilgrimages to Detroit in the past.
Any other memories that members may have would also be much appreciated.
Thanks again Robb for your insights.

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Attachment 9902
The addresses listed on the small Soul record labels were generally the street addresses of the houses in which the label owners lived. For example, the Olympiad Drive address on many of Ike Turner's L.A. labels, was the address of his and Tina's house in Baldwin Hills). That is true for almost ALL those small label addresses, most of which were located in the Ghettos of South-Central, South L.A., and Southwest L.A., while much of the Soul recording was done in Hollywood. Several of those label [["company") addresses in Hollywood, represent just post boxes [[similar to some of the New York small label addresses). Their Black owners generally living in The Ghetto, and their Jewish owners generally living in Hollywood or on L.A.'s West Side.

robb_k
Thanks for the information which really is a great place to start. As you mention it won't be easy for all sorts of reasons. That said i have some time before next year to work with the bits and pieces. It will be a winter project of sorts. I have built up a similar map of Detroit from all sorts of sources including street maps and atlases from the time. Also once there are names of people and companies and a general idea of where they might have been located, old telephone directories of the time are great sources. Between the public libraries and ebay, you'd be surprised what can come out.
That said, unlike the top soul cities of the 60s there aren't too many books on the subject like Robert Pruter's book on Chicago soul so collecting information on producers and writers who are long gone won't be easy.
I'm not expecting to create a full list but at least some traces of important places from the time
Both Brenda Hoiloway and Gloria Jones are in UK next month and i'm hoping to catch some time with both. LA record dealers also come across to the Utrecht and London record fairs in November. Again a snippet here and there builds up the story or gives a lead.
I'm fully expecting many of the buildings used to have been knocked down and even the streets concreted over in urban improvement projects and the like. That said, i'm a great lover of heritage and if in some small way i can record something on this great music while also enjoying a holiday, it seems worthwhile. Standing where Gloria Jones recorded Come Go With Me would mean more to me than Las Vegas and the Grand Canyon put together!!
your insights and memories on this really are appreciated so thanks again.

StuBass1
Thanks to you for your information on this. I appreciate also your words of caution on how difficult this task might be. Unfortunately the passion i have for the music tends to take over. My wife will provide full testament to this having accompanied me to some of the strangest parts of various US cities.
Your idea on the jazz clubs is a good one. I've taken in most of the Detroit and Chicago jazz clubs in previous trips [[going against advice for a late night trip to Bakers Keyboard Lounge but again a must-see!) When you wrote the magic words 'Kenny Burrell' i almost fell out of my chair. His Blue Note album Midnight Blue is one of my favourite jazz LPs and is on my standard Sonos playlist for jazz played around the house. There will be a Kenny Burrell slot somewhere in my visit if he is playing anywhere next August. I loved his work also with Stanley Turrentine who is another personal favourite.
The names of the clubs you supply will form a part of our evenings out i'm sure. i'll also look up UCLA jazz archives where Kenny is a professor to see what they have since as you mention jazz musicians were frequently used for soul records so again will have had a part to play.

Roger
Thanks for the link. My aim is to find at least two good record shops in the LA area to visit. Finding a knowledgable soul shop or two really is a priority. Experience from other cities tells me that what they might consider rubbish yields some gems. I'm not looking necessarily for ultra-rare or expensive but even the LA everyday record beats hands down what i might find in a standard UK vinyl outlet.
I'll also check whether the shop you visited is still there [[as you say, unlikely but who knows)!

Kenny Burrell May-2015 at the Catalina Bar and Grill in Hollywood...https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_x...p=docslist_api

Had a chance to speak with Kenny briefly after the set. Quite a fine gentleman...Showed him a picture of me and Joe Messina taken a couple of years back in Detroit and asked him if he recognized anyone in the picture...He sure did remember Joe and asked about his health, which is a logical question from an 84 year old asking about another 80 something he hadn't seen in years...

Attachment 9907
Steve Propes is the expert on L.A. groups. He wrote a book on them. You should check it out. I don't know if it has information on company addresses or recording studios used. But, at least, it might mention producers and arrangers.

Hi Robb, thanks for the tip on the book by Steve Propes. I'm trying to find a way to get a copy without the horrendous US postage charges, but I'll keep working on it.
Meantime putting together a database of names and places. What a complex sprawling place LA is. When I start to get something approaching meaningful, I'll post some details up here. Who knows somebody else may have the same obscure interest that I have.
At dinner the other night some friends have started me on another track also. Basically visiting places mentioned in soul songs. I'm not sure that we'll actually do any of these but the sort of crazy thoughts included driving up the California coast, stopping and asking someone 'Do You Know The Way To San Jose?' Finding the Dock of the Bay mentioned in Otis's song and visiting the LA train station with a Midnight Train To Georgia also had some legs.

Attachment 10009
Let us know when you are traveling. I spend 3-4 months in L.A. each year [[usually October through January), so I might be there to meet you. I believe that the original Central Train Station still exists. I can't imagine how you will find THE "Dock of The Bay" that Otis Redding mentioned, as there are hundreds of docks in San Francisco Harbor facing the Bay side.

Interesting trip and idea...To highlight famous songs and popular culture, you could start your trek Straight Outta Compton, head north and swing through Hollywood and become a Hollywood Swinger, Take Ventura Highway [[in the sunshine), head straight up the 101 and head up through Big Sur [[with love) where you'll find the Way To San Jose, then right into San Francisco, where you're sure to leave your heart... BTW...to recreate Otis Dock of The Bay experience...it's quite possible. He actually wrote that song on a trip to Sausalito in Marin County across the Golden Gate Bridge from SF inspired by his recent legendary performance at the Monterey Pop Festival...He wrote it aboard a houseboat in some harbor, which I'm sure if you investigate, you should be able to find the exact location since it's a fairly well known event...After Otis finished with the lyric, Steve Cropper put the finishing melodic touches on the song which was recorded shortly before his tragic death...

Attachment 10010
Sausalito Harbor has only a few docks. All you'd have to do is stand on each pier of each of a handful of docks, and you'll have stood there, EVEN if you don't rack down which actual one it was. But, I'm sure someone there will know which it was. It will also be easy enough to plot all the former Soul label addresses on L.A. city [[South Area, Central Area, San Fernando Valley and San Gabriel Valley) maps.

http://www.kpfk.org/index.php/progra...k#.VgCPukZHanM

Bill Gardner is also a wealth of history and information on Los Angeles soul. He recommends a few record stores in the comments at the end of this article, to which I would add Rockaway Records. Also, there are often goodies to be had at various record swaps around L.A.