Iraq:The Debacle Of

SoulfulDetroit.com FORUM: Archive - Beginning April 17, 2003: Iraq:The Debacle Of
Top of pageBottom of page   By Caleb (64.157.68.73) on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 09:09 pm:

It appears that Hussein is preparing for war in response to Bush's demand for him to leave Iraq.President Bush has no other choice now but to apply military force.Hopefully it will be a quick victory with little loss of life and very few ramifications.

Top of pageBottom of page   By stephanie (64.63.221.108) on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 09:26 pm:

I knew someone was going to post something about this. I wanted to do it but I didnt know if it was appropriate. I hope that many have prayed to God that this war would not happen I know I did but whatever happens I hope that it is quick and that the Iraqi people and America benefit and that we dont have a lot of casualties.....keep the men overseas in your prayers..
Stephanie

Top of pageBottom of page   By Sly fan (67.119.52.192) on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 09:29 pm:

I agree Steph. Lets keep praying and keeping the faith!!

Top of pageBottom of page   By STUBASS (205.188.209.38) on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 09:47 pm:

AS MUCH AS I UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS A MUSIC SITE...AND OUR POLITICAL OPINIONS SHOULD NOT GENERALLY BE DISCUSSED...POLITICS ASIDE...WE SHOULD ALL PRAY FOR THE SAFE RETURN OF OUR BROTHERS...SISTERS...MOTHERS...FATHERS...SONS...AND DAUGHTERS THAT MY BE IN HARMS WAY IN THE MIDDLE-EAST!!!...STU

Top of pageBottom of page   By David Meikle (213.122.190.227) on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 04:08 am:

This will ALWAYS be acceptable on SoulfulDetroit.

Thanks to those who wrote.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Nancy (66.185.85.72) on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 06:07 am:

I know that I can speak for many Canadians we are all praying for a very quick end to this and Caleb like you I hope that there are few ramifications

Top of pageBottom of page   By DF (24.90.11.4) on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 07:05 am:

I don't think this one will be quick. Lord, Help Us. Peace.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Rich (162.33.235.149) on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 08:47 am:

Nearly every American citizen I've ever discussed this with has the highest regard for the lives and welfare of the Iraqi people. Keep the safety of these folks in your prayers as well.

SH has been on the job for 24 horrifying years, time to swallow a little pride & take the Libyan Vacation. Minimize the misery and allow Iraq to to be restored to an honorable place in the world community.

Peace to the Universe

Top of pageBottom of page   By STUBASS (152.163.188.68) on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 10:20 am:

LET US ALSO NEVER FORGET THE 50-THOUSAND BRITTISH AND AUSTRAILIAN TROOPS THAT STAND SHOULDER TO SHOULDER WITH US AS OUR FRIENDS AND ALLIES AS WE PREPARE FOR BATTLE!!!...PRAY FOR THE SAFE RETURN HOME OF THOSE BRAVE MEN AND WOMEN... AND FOR THEIR FAMILIES AS WELL!!!...STU

Top of pageBottom of page   By stephanie (64.63.221.183) on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 10:45 am:

Whether you like George Bush or not as well keep him in your prayers and Colin Powell and all of our other leaders..
Stephanie

Top of pageBottom of page   By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 11:10 am:

My niece Maya is in the Armed Forces along with her husband and they have a beautiful young daughter. I also have a cousin who is already in Iraq awaiting his orders. They are proud to serve their country especially in these precious hours.

I can only hope & pray that our men & women in the Armed Forces from here & Austrailia make it home alive since war seems to be eminent.

Peace & blessings to all,
Kevin Goins - KevGo

Top of pageBottom of page   By John Lester (217.40.194.205) on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 11:17 am:

As STUBASS said earlier, even some of us Brits have been called up. I spoke to one of the guys from our company......he was shell shocked just to get the call-up papers

Top of pageBottom of page   By Bassn for God (24.158.71.34) on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 08:37 pm:

IF I could speak to world, I would remind them of the 50,000 lying in French soil from an unpopular war 60 years ago. We will be where we are needed, with or without the help from others. I pray daily for our troops and their families. Thank you all for proudly declaring that you too have turned to the Supreme One. Robert

Top of pageBottom of page   By Patrick (68.74.8.151) on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 08:52 pm:

We should have sent in Robert Blake and OJ to pop a cap in Saddam's ass.

Top of pageBottom of page   By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 08:57 pm:

I pray for the people of the world!!!

Top of pageBottom of page   By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 09:11 pm:

And my nephew's safe return.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Jim Feliciano in Detroit. (152.163.188.68) on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 09:19 pm:

"...The path we have chosen is full of hazards, as all paths are--but it is the one most consistent with our character and courage as a nation and our commitments around the world. The cost of freedom is always high--but Americans have always paid it. And one path we shall never chose, and that is the path of surrender-- or submission."

-John F. Kennedy
October 22, 1962

Top of pageBottom of page   By Jim Feliciano in Detroit. (152.163.188.68) on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 09:33 pm:

Pray for peace, pray for our leadership, pray for America, pray unto Almighty God, that He, thru His infinite Mercy, that He may sustain our nation thru the many difficult days ahead, in this time of great uncertainty, during the hour of maximum peril... of this, Dear Lord, we shall pray.

Pray for America... this, is my earnest prayer.

FOR UNTO HIM BE THE POWER, AND THE GLORY, FOREVER AND EVER... AMEN.

-Jim Feliciano, Jr.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 09:35 pm:

Jim,

I'm for national unity in a time of crisis and support for the troops, but quoting JFK as if he'd support a hard-right leaning president is a stretch.

Top of pageBottom of page   By LUCY (152.163.188.68) on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 09:40 pm:

TO ALL OF YOU WHO HAVE LOVED ONES IN THE MIDDLE EAST,MY PRAYERS GO OUT TO ALL OF YOU.
I PRAY FOR THEM AND THEIR FAMILIES.

REGARDLESS OF WHAT OUR OPINIONS ARE.
GOD BLESS OUR ARMED FORCES AND GOD BLESS OUR BELOVED COUNTRY.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Jim Feliciano in Detroit. (152.163.188.68) on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 10:35 pm:

Hi Susan,
The 'JFK' quote was a 'sentiment' of American presidential 'resolve' during a time of 'impending' crisis whose very words could be eloquently applied still, even today, those same words as it was 'expressed' (before the nation) by President Kennedy during the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis, in October, 1962.

To suggest otherwise-- would only be derived as, just taken 'out of context'....

Top of pageBottom of page   By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 10:38 pm:

Jim,
But actually, you're taking JFK's words out of historical context, and applying it here.

While we do express national unity, let those of us who didn't elect the current president keep our heroes intact.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Julian (152.163.188.68) on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 10:43 pm:

Hey Patrick,
That was funny!

Ju

Top of pageBottom of page   By mhc (172.164.147.12) on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 11:07 pm:

Above all, I pray right now for the innocent people of Iraq. As I've read and heard, the opening salvo of the war will be a massive US bombing campaign over Baghdad. Personally, I'm not in favor of this, OK?.. And also, personally, I'll always despise the Bush administration for using September 11th as a propaganda device; HOW COLD IS THAT!?!?!?! Yes, I "support the troops", and respect their willingness to serve our country, but my thoughts are mostly with the defenseless people of Iraq; they don't deserve any of this. And I can't supress the belief that the reason that Cheney, et. al., are doing this is because they want to own the world.. Also, thanks David for allowing this thread to be here; other people who run music-related sites are balking at these kinds of discussions, but this stuff is on everybody's minds, so again, thanks..

Top of pageBottom of page   By Vonnie (205.188.209.38) on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 11:52 pm:

I agree with the sentiments of those on this forum, I pray for the innocent children, women, and elderly persons who live in Iraq. They have no control over the situation that they have been placed into; and we in America have no control over the situation that we have been placed into. All we can do is pray that things end quickly and without enormous loss of life.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Common (209.2.55.171) on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 08:52 am:

Hello everyone,

MHC, I echo your sentiments. I don't see what good will come out of this. As a person who lives in the NYC area, we are literally "under siege" to put it nicely. Cops & soldiers everywhere. Somehow, this is not comforting to me & puts me on edge. What the "El Presidente" should be doing is putting money into education (our state & city colleges are in for a tuition hike, putting an extra financial burden on working class families), medical care, & creating jobs(oh, did I tell you the economy SUCKS here in NY state??? Layoff here, there & everywhere!!). Not to mention, skyrocketing property taxes & a transportation fare hike! Oh & I forgot that after we finish bombing Bagdad, we've got 90 billion dollars to spare to help them rebuild! (BTW, NY has yet to get any of the financial aid promised by the gov't after 9-11). As you see, I'm basically against this war & I really do pray that we don't have many casualities. Sorry to vent in this manner, but I'm quite worried about the outcome of this, which I don't think will be pretty.

Peace!

Top of pageBottom of page   By Eli (151.197.39.204) on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 09:40 am:

Historically, all of the power hungry madmen
associated with all previous wars have met their demise. In our present conflict , I predict that the evil ones wil experience "the mother of all demise!"

Top of pageBottom of page   By douglasm (68.113.15.28) on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 11:04 am:

Last night I had the strangest dream, I've never had before....

My opinion on the rightness/wrongness of a probable war is not important. What is important is that if a conflict does come, the fewest possible people are hurt, and the least damage possible is done, and my thoughts are with the people who will suffer on all sides.

Top of pageBottom of page   By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 11:10 am:

Eli:
I think our friends at PIR have addressed this many times in the songs that have come from that mighty fortress of pop music.

MHC & Common:
As a fellow New Yorker, I'm deeply concerned as you are regarding the state of affairs here & throughout the country. It angers me that my thirty-one year old niece & her husband may be called back into active duty over a fight our president has no business dragging us into. But at the same time I honor my niece & nephew-in-law for serving their country whether the gov't is right or wrong.

As for the atmosphere here in the Big Apple, I hear the same comments being made from midtown to uptown - "we shouldn't be at war", "if there's a draft, my kid ain't going" - you name it. Even one of the artists I manage is writing a song about the current state of affairs.

I don't know what else to say but let's all pull together, hope our soldiers make it home alive and the Iraqi population that are innocent forgive us for this trespass.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

PS - Note to Jim Feliciano - send me your email address so I can correspond with you - kevingoins@juno.com)

Top of pageBottom of page   By Marc Forrest (145.243.194.67) on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 12:59 pm:

My deepest thoughts are with the British, US AND Iraqi soldiers and most of all with the unguilty population of Iraq. All have had no choice to make and are faced upon a situation most of them have not deserved and wished for. There is an old German saying that goes "War is the natural follow up to diplomacy"...well, not nowadays if ever at all.

Diplomacy, as you all know, never had a real chance in this at all.

I really feel so awful bad when I think of all those poor kids and mothers in Baghdad, just as bad as I felt after 1109 for the citizens of NYC.

It is a very sad and dangerous situation and I only wish it would have never come to this point. To wish it will be a short war with only a short number of victims is naive, hypocrite and therefore impossible, so I do not. I only wish the world peace and that the result will not be as harmful as it sure seems to become.

May the people who have started it now know what they are doing.

Soul Content Mickey Woods "Please Mr. Kennedy"

Top of pageBottom of page   By Michael/Cleoharvey (160.79.83.208) on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 05:26 pm:

This war makes me sick to my stomach. The day the bombing starts is the first day of the rest of our lives as a nation. The world will forever change and I fear not for the better. We are forging a path that breaks alliances that have existed since World War II and makes the Middle East even more dangerous, if that is possible. The arguments for the war are tenuous at best. We are doing a pre-emptive strike on a sovereign nation without the support of the United Nations. Because the UN does not agree with us does not mean we are correct in what we are doing. True, the UN has made mistakes in the past but the institution was created so that there would not be unilateral action such as ours that could throw the world into chaos.

What is even more shocking is that if any anti-war sentiment is expressed in this country, you are labelled un-American. The discussion bizarrely twists into lack of support for our troops. Of course, we all support the men and women who are serving. However there were men and women who died so that we would have the right to express our opinions. We should never lose sight of that fact. As the pro-war are able to express their opinions, so should the anti-war without fear of being tarred and feathered with vitriolic words.

Even more disturbing is the use of providence. Saying that there is a divine right to do what we are doing or that "God is on our side." This limits God by making God provincial, mean spirited, narrow thinking and having an inability to look at the world as a whole with everyone that takes a breath being his children. Using religion has gotten many nations in trouble in our world's history. My belief is that this war has nothing to do with God but the disintegration of spirituality and the human condition.
"Peace"
Michael

Top of pageBottom of page   By stephanie (64.63.221.59) on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 06:18 pm:

Well I heard on the news that some of the Iraqi soldiers do not want the war and want to surrender. Im not for the war either. One man today told me WAR is good for the economy and I totally disagree I have friends who are out of work because of this!!!! Lets pray that the soldiers who do surrender that they are treated kindly by our government and that we dont lose anyone. I want to see this be over quick. God does answer prayer whether some believe it or not.

I also want to say that I ask that God gives Bush the right decisions although I could go on and on about that. Lets also pray for the British troops as well and everyone over the world especially Israel..as Freda Payne would say
Bring the Boys Home..
Steph

Top of pageBottom of page   By Bassn for God (24.158.71.34) on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 09:36 pm:

I am not for any war, but this something that must be done. I know that I am in the minority on this thread, but doing the right thing is not always the easy thing. Say we could just wait for something else to happen. I have lost several friends in NYC, Bin's sandbox , and in the Gulf War, ,I am not ready to lose anymore while a MADDASs hides his weapons that should already be gone. We can not live as an island in this world, we must do our part. This is our part and it is not pretty. 3rd RECON Brothers I will always see your faces!

Top of pageBottom of page   By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 09:45 pm:

This is my nephew in the red shirt. Gregory Williams. (Shakmani's son)

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/breaking/3_19_03iraq_more.html

Top of pageBottom of page   By BCNYC (152.163.189.235) on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 10:03 pm:

MHC and KevGo,

I am with you...I have every bit of love for the soldiers. But Bush and Cheney and the Republicans and the lobbyists and the airlines, insurance industry, the anti-choicers and the racists were colluding on September 12 to exploit the attack on New York politically.

I feel I am between a rock and a hard place: the fundamentalists of Islam on one hand, who can't wait to topple a brick wall on me, and the fundamentalists of America, who can't sleep while America's minorities live another day. I don't hate the soldiers. But Bush and the Republicans make it clear every day that there are second-class citizens in this country -- meaning anyone who disagrees, and who isn't rich and who doesn't make campaign contributions. Check your 401-K if you think they are on your side. Right this moment, New York is vulnerable to attack because the Republican congress has held up the money promised to make us more secure -- because they want to make a point to New Yorkers who voted for Clinton. So don't be surprised when less than 100% of America is in love with the unelected President. The government has continued to cast out the second-class citizens while waving the flag.

And guess who's going to fight for the veterans when the Republicans cut the Veterans Administration budget and oppose the vets' attempts to get care for the diseases, mental and physical, they will doubtless come back with...Yup, the bleeding heart liberals, just like after Vietnam and the Gulf War.

I pray for every soldier and family member. I'm sad they were used politically by Bush.

Top of pageBottom of page   By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 10:33 pm:

Brian:
What more can I say? You put it in a nutshell.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

Top of pageBottom of page   By STUBASS (152.163.188.68) on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 11:51 pm:

GREETINGS TO ALL OF MY SOULFUL DETROIT FRIENDS ON THIS MOST SOBERING DAY: WE ALL SEEK PEACE IN A WORLD THAT REWARDS THE STRONG WILLED AND DETERMINED...AND PENALIZES THOSE WHO LACK BACKBONE AND FORTITUDE!!!...HOPEFULLY...OUR TROOPS WILL SOON COME HOME WITH A MINIMUM OF CASUALTIES!!!...I RESPECT ALL OF YOUR OPINIONS AND OBSERVATIONS...HOWEVER...IN THOSE OBSERVATIONS...I'VE NOT ONCE HEARD A SINGLE WORD ABOUT THE FIVE-THOUSAND IRAQI BABIES THAT DIE EACH MONTH OF STARVATION ACCORDING TO THE UNITED NATIONS...THE SAME UNITED NATIONS THAT ALLOWS SADDAM HUSSEIN TO OBTAIN OIL DOLLARS WHICH THEN GO IN AMOUNTS OF HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO BUILD NEW "PRESIDENTIAL PALACES"!!!...OR HOW ABOUT...WHILE THOUSANDS OF BABIES STARVE...SENDING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS INTO HIS SWISS AND OVERSEAS BANK ACCOUNTS???...THATS NOT TO MENTION THE "RAPE ROOMS"...TORTURE PRISONS...AND PUBLIC MUTILATION FOR EXPRESSING DISAGREEMENT WITH THE HUSSEIN CLAN REGIEME!!!...YES...THERE ARE OTHER COUNTRY'S AROUND THE WORLD THAT OPPRESS AND DEGRADE THEIR PEOPLE...AND THE WORLD BODY SHOULD ENGAGE THESE COUNTRIES...WHICH THEY HAVE FAILED TO DO IN THE PAST!!!...HOWEVER...THE VAST MAJORITY OF THOSE COUNTRIES DO NOT HAVE THE CAPABILITY OR AMBITION TO STRIKE OUT AT *US*...SADDAM HUSSEIN *DOES*...AND THIS IS NOT A SITUATION THAT WE CAN AFFORD TO ALLOW TO FESTER UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE...WE'VE SEEN WHAT HE CAN DO!!!...IF YOU HAVE LEGITIMATE DISAGREEMENTS WITH OUR PRESIDENT ON A MIRIAD OF ISSUES (AS A DEMOCRAT...I HAVE ISSUES...ESPECIALLY REGARDING THE ECONOMY...WITH THE ADMINISTRATION)...BUT IN THIS HOUR OF PERIL...WE SHOULD SUPPORT ALL OF OUR TROOPS...AND THAT INCLUDES OUR COMMANDER IN CHIEF!!!...PEACE BE WITH YOU ALL!!!...STUBASS

Top of pageBottom of page   By Nish (128.239.202.115) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 12:38 am:

To Sis and Kevin and everyone else who has relatives fighting, my prayers go out to you all for your loved ones safety,they are precious in God's sight.

I watch in horror as our constitution is demolished and executive power is being pushed to its most despotic limits, as unilateralism and isolationism dismantle international cooperation and as 21st century imperialism begins in a terribly frightening manner. I hope you all try to remain upbeat and happy in clearly dismal times, hard as it is. May God comfort all of us, and keep us safe and allow us to just enjoy all of our friends and life in general. I hope the Iraqis are safe tonight. Keep the music playing, guys, we need it now more than ever, at least I know I do.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Julian (205.188.209.38) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 12:58 am:

I hope that my job doesn't get messed up!

Top of pageBottom of page   By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 01:01 am:

Thank you Nish. I am so frighten. I went to the store and picked up a few things, including bottles of water and canned goods.

I am sick to my stomach thinking about those bombs. I'm lucky that I retired from the McNamara Federal Building. That building has been barracade in since nine eleven. To even see the bldg. causes anxiety when I just pass by, so I don't go that way. My heart goes out to children everywhere. I am sad.
God Bless

Top of pageBottom of page   By Julian (205.188.209.38) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 01:06 am:

On the serious tip, I would post my two cents but it would just be redundant. Seems my feelings have been almost entirely represented so far.

The only thing that I can add is that I fear the chickens will come home to roost, again, sooner or later.

Top of pageBottom of page   By BCNYC (205.188.209.38) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 08:19 am:

Stu,

I can see we are both seeing the same picture...and mentioning different parts of it on the thread...I think we both agree that if Saddam was pro-US, as the Saudis are politically and economically sometimes (not forgetting that the Saudi oil profits from our SUVs financed the World Trade Center murders) -- Bush would be protecting him up the ying-yang, just as the US now protects the Saudis against the US families seeking to sue them for their involvement in Sept. 11.

We have many client states around the world who we count as allies who treat their own people as prisoners, but we don't say boo. Yeah, I support guys like Saddam being disappeared. But frankly it should have been done through assassination. But that wouldn't have caught up the whole country and won a congressional election cycle. The fact is, every US soldier sent over is a human shield. George W. Bush's human shield. And the far right's human shield.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Edgar (200.46.132.86) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 09:35 am:

I didn’t feel like contributing to this thread because when I expressed my opinion after the terrorist attack of September 11 (I just said that I wished that prayers had been said when American troops killed children in Central America), I was unfairly attacked by bigots at the Mary Wilson board. But I would like to contribute some thoughts, and take it from someone whose country was invaded in 1989, where many people unjustly died, and all for the demogagy of another Bush, claiming he was doing it for democracy and freedom. More informative is watching Barbara Trent’s Oscar-winning documentary “The Panama Deception”.

I just read Michael Moore’s letter for George Bush and found a line very revealing. Moore wrote that "If you do go through with this war, more than likely it will be over soon because I'm guessing there aren't a lot of Iraqis willing to lay down their lives to protect Saddam Hussein."

I don't know about Sadam, but it seems that Iraqis would like to get rid of him. The problem - and please give it a thought, because I believe it is one of the issues in this situation, which came to the front on September 11 - is that the USA (or its rulers, although the majority of citizens has remained silent and let it grow) has declared itself the police of the world, overthrowing tyrants or heads of governments that believe in the self-determination of each nation; and even putting tyrants on power, who are USA allies.

That is Imperialism. I think that is the issue which the Iraq affair has made so evident for most people. In Panama we know it since we created a nation financed by Wall Street, with the complacency of Theodore Roosevelt, so he could have a profitable business as a canal for America and send US troops and threaten Panamanians whenever he wanted to.

I agree that tyrants are not the rulers people need, that the September 11 act of terrorism was terrible, but why all this happens? Why? What is behind all this? What is so obvious behind this that we refuse to see? Is it due to the fact that the US supports Israel and the EU gives support to the Palestinians? The truth is, or so I think, that behind all this there are only greedy persons, materialistic persons, crazy for wealth. (As someone told Stephanie, war helps economy. What a cynic remark!)

Notice that in regards of the Jewish-Palestinian affair, many Americans think that this will not work unless” the European Union would be willing to work with the USA on this". Why? Why Europe and the USA have to "fix" nations? Close your eyes and ask yourself why. Erase for a second the demagogic cassette so many persons have played for you since your birth, claiming that some god sent a ray from heaven or whatever, and convinced the fathers of America that the USA had to defend freedom all over the world. That's your national "cosmogony". It has nothing to do with Truth and it has nothing to do with our own cosmogonies. That is imperialism. That is not correct, and it's one of the sources of so much suffering, pain, hunger, etc., as it happened before with other empires as Greece, Rome, Egypt, etc., etc.

Being a superpower is not easy? You get blamed for things that you do and for things you have nothing to do with? Well, that is an effect of the simple cause: growing intolerance and desire to control the world for the well-being of the citizens of one superpower, persons who think very little that some of the comforts they have, are possible because of the death, exploitation and destruction of foreign lands. Cynism is so terrible that people all over the world sit in front of the television sets –like in the good old days of the Roman circus- to watch death as the big show.

Sorry, but that is what I think. And I am also worried. A good friend of mine is right now in the desert, “by the cannon”, as he wrote me in an e-mail.

Top of pageBottom of page   By LTLFTC (12.210.76.205) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 10:29 am:

MHC , Vonnie , Nish , Common , Michael/CH , Brian , Edgar....thank you all for articulating my thoughts and feelings on this issue. It's no secret that the far-right wing of this ultra-conservative administration has wanted to re-shape the Middle East to suit their personal interests for years now. The UN may be flawed , but in a global society , it (or some similar organization ) is the wave of the future and I truly see the administration tying Iraq to 9/11 as a classic example of "playing the race card". That seemingly intelligent people buy into this is so depressing I'm not sure even the Velvelettes and headphones can get me past it.

Steve K

Top of pageBottom of page   By Michael/Cleoharvey (160.79.83.208) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 11:08 am:

Steve K:

LOL!! I was depressed this morning but you made me laugh with the Velvelettes line. There is nothing more wonderful than the balm of humor.
Michael

Top of pageBottom of page   By BCNYC (152.163.189.235) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 11:21 am:

Hmmm. Ever the contrarian here...I just want to put in that just as the Republicans and the far right that control that party work inconsistencies, I want to make sure that my neighbors on the board remember that my objections here have to do with the exploitation of 9/11 and this war to bring more Republicans into Congress to do away with women's rights, equal opportunity and the funding of public schools. If Bush had undergone some conversion at 9/11 about America being one people, I might even feel differently about what's happening now. But noooo...we can rely on him to advance the whole far-right agenda and enrich his political friends.

That said, I'm sorry if it sounds paternalistic, but it's not acceptable to me that what democracy brings to some other countries is theocracy. Wrong way, wrong reasons, but tolerance (right now just lip service in our country) has to be spread around the world. Intolerance is something I won't take from the KKK and Trent Lott, or the abortion clinic shooters, and I won't take it from the Taliban, and fundamentalist Islam, either. There is something to the fact that in 1979, Iranian students stormed the US embassy but in the Y2K want Beemers, TRL and Britney (couple a years behind the fashion, right?). The best thing our culture exports is openmindedness and acceptance. We do have to respond to the fundamentalism of religion worldwide, and I don't patronize them or you other readers by claiming that it's cultural and indigenous and therefore okay.

Top of pageBottom of page   By David Meikle (213.122.109.193) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 11:23 am:

Thanks to everyone for a sensible discussion.

David

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 11:29 am:

I agree with David. I have made a decision to stay out of this conversaton but I feel the subject has been handled properly and with careful thought. Let's hope we can do away with this thread soon.

Top of pageBottom of page   By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 12:00 pm:

To Nish, Brian & Company:
Thank you for the kind thoughts regarding my niece & cousin who are serving their country.

As I said before, let's hope this is over soon with little loss of human life and that our troops come home safe.

To SisDetroit:
Hang in there, my thoughts & prayers are with your family.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

Top of pageBottom of page   By Gabriele (212.171.165.36) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 12:22 pm:

(((((((((PEACE)))))))))

Gabriele

Top of pageBottom of page   By stephanie (64.63.221.150) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 12:51 pm:

I just want to say that SisDetroit I pray for your neview and KevGo I pray for your relatives as well. Everyone has said everything I pretty much feel. I am a Democrat and if anyone on this board is Republican I hope that you have not been offended by any remarks about Republicans. I believe we should love everyone myself. Im not that military savvy and although I believe that we should do something about Saddam and Mr Bin Laden I dont know what to do or say about it. I would hope that our military or our government would have enough sense to know what to do. Im so glad that Edgar made his posting its nice to get the other perspective and not just an American perspective. I know both sides promote propoganda its done all over the world. I agree with Edgar that its power and greed but the sad part is that its not the little man its the government and the people in power and there is very little we can do except pray and march and protest. WHen it comes to war marching and protesting never stopped it though. The government tells us we are running out of money for social security yet we can come up with billions of dollars for war and then more to rebuild a country!!! Whats wrong with this picture. When it comes to the Enron bullies I say dont send them to jail I say let them be homeless on the street for a few months so everyone can see them. Jail is too good for them.
Anyone who steals someones 401k money that took them 10 years to save should be out on the street Im sorry. Then we he is done that for a few months put him in McDonalds to work and dont pay him just give him room and board and make him work like that for the next ten years of his life and he will see how normal people live.
Steph

Top of pageBottom of page   By nikki (24.46.200.124) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 01:44 pm:

I won't go into my political views pro or con, so I'll just keep it short. My prayers go out to all the military over there, with special prayers going out to Sis & Kevin, for the safe return home of their family members! Like everyone else, I hope it's quickly over with the least amount of casualties of all innocent people.

Nikki

Top of pageBottom of page   By BCNYC (152.163.189.235) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 04:00 pm:

The war's now hot. May I say my prayers are with everyone on the ground over there. To all the family members on the board, also, my humblest gratitude for your loved ones' service and sacrifice on our behalf.

Top of pageBottom of page   By STUBASS (64.12.97.7) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 04:15 pm:

SINCE MY VIEWS APPEAR TO BE IN SOMEWHAT OF A MINORITY AT SOULFUL DETROIT...I FEEL THAT IT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY TO REPRESENT THE VIEWS OF 70-PERCENT OF THE AMERICAN POPULATION THAT HAVE NOT BEEN PROPERLY REPRESENTED HERE!!!...FIRST OF ALL...I AGREE WITH DAVID AND RALPH...AND THANK ALL OF YOU FOR A THOUGHTFUL DISCUSSION...EVEN IF OUR THOUGHTS DIFFER!!!...AS A DEMOCRAT...I HAVE SEEN POLITICAL BACKBITING COMING FROM BOTH SIDES...PROBABLY SINCE WATERGATE!!!...I HAD NO MERCY FOR THOSE REPUBLICANS WHO SOUGHT POLITICAL GAIN OVER THE CASTIGIZATION OF PRESIDENT CLINTON...AND QUESTIONED HIS MOTIVES DURING HIS TRIALS AND TRIBULATIONS...ALTHOUGH I DIDN'T AGREE THAT HIS BEHAVIOR WAS CONSISTANT WITH WHAT I WANT IN MY PRESIDENT...ONLY THAT CERTAIN TALK SHOW HOSTS BUILT THEIR CAREEERS ON THE BACK OF THE BASH CLINTON BANDWAGON!!!...CONVERSELY...I DON'T APPRECIATE MANY OF OUR DEMOCRATIC LEADERS WHO ARE DERIDING OUR CURRENT PRESIDENT DURING THIS TIME OF CRISIS...BECAUSE THEY FEAR THAT A SUCCESSFUL OUTCOME TO OUR CURRENT CRISIS WILL GIVE PRESIDENT BUSH A POLITICAL ADVANTAGE AS WE HEAD INTO THE 2004 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS!!!...I DON'T BELIEVE THAT ANY PRESIDENT...AS HAS BEEN CHARGED...THINKS OF THE WEALTH OF HIS OR HER FRIENDS AT A TIME WHEN THOUSANDS OF OUR TROOPS STAND IN HARMS WAY!!!...BUSH IS ALREADY A WEALTHY MAN...AND I'M CERTAIN THAT HIS PLACE IN HISTORY IS MUCH MORE IMPORTANT TO HIM...THAN TO MAKE SOME OF HIS FRIENDS...ALREADY RICH...EVEN RICHER...HE CAN DO THIS THROUGH UNWARRANTED TAX CUTS!!!...THE BUSH FAMILY...LIKE THEM OR NOT...HAVE BEEN A PART OF THE AMERICAN POLITICAL FABRIC THROUGHOUT THE 20TH CENTURY...AND I DON'T SEE A FACIST AROUND EVERY CORNER...OR A COMMUNIST EITHER FOR THAT MATTER!!!...I BELIEVE THAT THE PEOPLE OF IRAQ WILL OWE US A GREAT DEBT OF GRATITUTE ONCE THIS IS OVER...JUST AS THE AFGAHNI PEOPLE HAVE DONE...AND WE WILL SEND A STRONG MESSAGE TO ANYONE IN THE WORLD...THAT IF YOU HAVE EVIL INTENTIONS AGAINST THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA...THERE WILL BE SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES TO PAY!!!...IT IS NOT OUR FAULT THAT EVIL DICTATORS AND RENEGADE TERRORISTS WISH US HARM...IT'S THEIR NATURE...WE HAVE WHAT THEY WANT...AND MORE THAN THEM WANTING TO ACQUIRE WHAT WE HAVE...THEY WOULD RATHER SEE IT ALL TAKEN AWAY FROM US!!!...AS THE LATE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER...GOLDA MAIER TOLD THE LATE ANWAR SADAT..."I CAN FORGIVE YOU FOR KILLING OUR CHILDREN...BUT I CAN NEVER FORGIVE *YOU* FOR PUTTING US IN THE POSITION OF HAVING TO KILL *YOUR* CHILDREN"!!!...AND SPEAKING OF THE ISRAELI-PALISTINIAN SITUATION...ANY JUST PERSON SEEKS PEACE IN THAT REGION...AND JUSTICE FOR ALL...BUT TWO STATEMENTS SOMEWHAT ENCAPSULATE THAT ENTIRE SITUATION!!!...IF THE PALISTINIANS PUT DOWN THEIR ARMS...THERE WOULD BE NO MORE VIOLENCE!!!...IF THE ISRAELIS PUT DOWN THEIR ARMS...THERE WOULD BE NO MORE ISRAEL!!!...THINK ABOUT IT!!!...MY VIEWS HAVE EVOLVED AND CHANGED SOMEWHAT OVER THE YEARS...AS I HAVE LEARNED TO LOOK AT THINGS THROUGH A GREATER HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE...AND BEEN FREED SOMEWHAT OF THE US VERSUS THEM CONCEPT IN AMERICAN POLITICAL AFFAIRS...AND I BELIEVE THAT IT IS THAT MATURITY WHICH ALLOWS ME TO FORM OPINIONS BASED ON OBJECTIVE ANALYSIS AND NOT BLIND POLITICAL PASSION!!!...THE IMPORTANT THING IS THAT AS AMERICANS...WE ENJOY THE RIGHT TO DISCUSS THESE ISSUES...AND CAN AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH EACH OTHER BASED ON OUR OWN CONSCIENCE!!!...THAT IS NOT TRUE IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD...CERTAINLY NOT IRAQ...BUT HOPEFULLY...A BETTER DAY IS COMING FOR US ALL...WHERE PEACE AND FREEDOM...FREE OF THE FEAR OF OPPRESSION AND TERRORISM...AND THOSE IDEALS CAN SPREAD FROM ONE CORNER OF THE EARTH TO THE OTHER!!!...PEACE AND FREEDOM!!!...STUBASS

Top of pageBottom of page   By Bassn for God (24.158.71.34) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 10:01 pm:

STU - I hear you words and must agree. I feel great outnumbered on a site of common interest. I do not want war, but somebody is going to get dirty if were are to clean up this world. While I wish is was not the US, I see no other leaders in the world with the BACKBONE to call it like it is. As far as MADDASs is concerned, that should have been gone long ago, but as we are a nation of the offended, we dare not hurt someone else's feelings by doing something against there view. I know that everyone has the right to there opinion, I have and will fight for the right for every American, not just the one's I like. I would never burn a flag, but it is someone's right to do so if they wish, just do not try it around me. That is my right. Some people will never accept the fact the We Can NOT All Just Get Along. I love each and everyone of you on this forum, but the US is doing the Right thing for the world. Tonite, when you switch off the lights, turn it right back on. Provided to you Compliments of our Ladies and Gentlemen in Camo. Peace is not free for all, some have and will die for it.
Robert - Republican Blue Collar Ford Truck Bass Playing CHRISTIAN

Top of pageBottom of page   By STUBASS (152.163.189.235) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 11:01 pm:

HEY BFG: I HOPE THAT IT'S NOT JUST A *BASS* THING!!!...TO ALL ELSE: IT APPEARS THAT WE ALL WANT THE SAME THING...PEACE FOR THE WORLD...AND PERHAPS IT'S IMPORTANT FOR ALL OF US TO EXPRESS OUR VIEWS... AS TO MAINTAIN A CERTAIN BALANCE IN THE DISCUSSION OF THE IMPORTANT ISSUES OF OUR TIME!!!...PEACE...STUBASS

Top of pageBottom of page   By stephanie (64.63.221.90) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 11:07 pm:

Bassn for God
I understand your point and I respect it and some people think this war is good. Im not for it but if someone has to do it I guess its us I really dont know.
Stephanie
thanks for speaking your peace

Top of pageBottom of page   By Bassn for God (24.158.71.34) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 11:30 pm:

STU
Its not.
Thanks
Robert

Top of pageBottom of page   By TonyRussi (68.18.224.201) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 08:01 am:

I agree with Stubass.

Top of pageBottom of page   By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.32) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 08:52 am:

Stu,
I am with you all the way man.
Well Said(andthensome).
Mel.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Sue (64.12.97.7) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 09:13 am:

I'm glad everybody's been able to express themselves fairly civilly -- I will say that I hope in future we hear less religious imagery from our presidents; the law of the land in the U.S. is the separation of church and state. I'm a little tired of having religion invoked on either side of this conflict. It has no business in this.

My ancestors (Quakers) came to the U.S. seeking freedom from having a majority religion forced upon them, so I'm a little sensitive about having religion wielded for any reason.

Top of pageBottom of page   By medusa (66.73.0.205) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 09:10 pm:

Bush has already passed up his other choice, "DON"T GO" especially when he has no retreat, no allies. It's not really a war, it's a fight and y didn't he fight with a larger nation anyway? Plus he must never 4get, he's is surrounded by the Arab World, at home and abroad.
Think about it, and the Arab world is ONE, not like here where there is so much division, that Affirmative Action is necessary. The bible states that a house divided cannot stand.

Top of pageBottom of page   By STUBASS (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 01:42 am:

GREETINGS MEDUSA: IF I AM READING YOUR POST CORRECTLY...YOU OBVIOUSLY DID NOT OBSERVE THE SAME "ARAB LEAGUE" MEETING THAT I DID A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO!!!...THE ARAB NATIONS BROKE UP THEIR MEETING WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO REACH CONSENSUS ON SO MUCH AS WHAT TIME TO HAVE LUNCH!!!...PEACE...STUBASS

Top of pageBottom of page   By STUBASS (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 01:51 am:

PS TO MEDUSA: IF IT IS OUR FAULT THAT WE COULD NOT REACH CONSENSUS WITHIN THE UNITED NATIONS...THINK ABOUT THIS!!!...COULD ANYONE REACH CONSENSUS WITHIN AN ORGANIZATION...THE UNITED NATIONS...THAT PUTS LIBYA IN CHARGE OF THE COMMITTEE ON "HUMAN RIGHTS"...AND IRAQ IN CHARGE OF THE COMMITTEE ON "GLOBAL DISARMAMENT"...AND LISTENS TO FRANCE REGARDING WHEN MILITARY CONFLICT IS APPROPRIATE (UNLESS IS TO GIVE IRAQ ADVICE ON THE BEST METHODS OF SURRENDER)???...STU(SPEAKING FOR THE 75%)BASS

Top of pageBottom of page   By Jay (24.55.210.61) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 06:03 am:

I have so much to say.
Here is a little bit of it.

The Arab world is hardly at one. If Israel were removed...say moved to South America for example, the other Arab states would eat the Palestinians and each other alive.
The conflicts between Iran, Iraq, the Kurds, the Egyptians and our great friends the Saudis are well documented.
Yes Saudi Arabia the place that most of the 9-11 terrorists were from….The place that Bill Clinton just received a $250,000 speaking fee…Saudi Arabia a great place!!
Talk about a dysfunctional family! Please!

This war will cost George W.
Any president that gets to office with 50% of the vote plus or minus will have half the population against him no matter what! So the extra protesting will eventually take it’s toll.
GW will be an easy mark for the Democrats because his decisions are so extremely crucial.
But in the end, I believe the guy has done the right thing.
He has been direct and resolute.
He is a decision-maker.
He’s not as dumb as most of the Hollywood actors professing to know it all might have you believe.
When actually they really know very little. And contrary to the belief of Danny Glover, GW is not a racist
http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/871116.asp?0bl=-0#BODY
Appointment of brilliant minds like Colin Powell and the remarkable Dr. Condoleezza Rice in top cabinet spots….something never done by his Democratic predecessor should be proof enough.

The War:
I believe that the net effect is, that it will in-fact SAVE lives.
Unfortunately the TV coverage turns the war into another ratings-hungry TV show by the rabid networks and I am adamantly against it. It makes me sick. It dilutes the grave nature of the whole affair.
I do believe that our government is truly, through pinpoint aiming technology trying to keep the bombs away from the civilians. If a quick surrender happens, all the better for all the people involved.

Our Buddies the Hussein Clan….
Just think of the torture chambers at the Olympic training camp in Iraq, care of Uday Hussein his son
http://espn.go.com/oly/news/2003/0120/1495655.html#
Or the money that went to castles instead of food for his starving children many of whom subsequently died. Or the partial extermination/ethnic cleansing of the Kurds.
This man is evil personified. He is no different than Hitler period.

And while we can’t police the world, is he (GW) doing the wrong thing?

Where the UN just didn’t get it is that you can’t negotiate with this madman.
The ONLY thing understood is power period. If we had waited 6 months NOTHING WOULD HAVE CHANGED except the weather being worse.
My friends, we are DAMN lucky we have had the power, technology, leadership and freedom never before experienced by any country in the world. It’s far from perfect but it’s the best there is.
And I am pretty damn proud of our country and our folks in uniform and the fearless leader who really cares in the face of insurmountable opposition.

Today, a local LA news station interviewed an American-Iraqi woman who had just been questioned by the FBI.
The reporter asked how she was treated. She said “very good”. “When I lived in Iraq they made me watch them torture my father when they asked me questions.”

Who is the bad guy here?
Systematic human rights violations ( read torture, mayhem, ) are well documented:
http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/hrdossier.pdf
Take a read. It could make you sick….it did me.

StuBass is batting 1000 here.

But I do respect folks who really work to analyze a situation and through a logical deduction come up with other than my opinion.

After saying all this I realize that in some of these issues I could be wrong. But I sure hope not.

Jay

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ritchie (62.254.0.9) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 06:59 am:

US Marines unveil their new secret weapon - sound effects.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2855269.stm

Top of pageBottom of page   By STUBASS (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 10:31 am:

THANKS FOR THE TAKE JAY!!!...YOU MAKE SOME OUTSTANDING POINTS REGARDING OUR COUNTRY'S REAL MOTIVES FOR THIS ACTION...FREEDOM FROM TERRORISM...AND FREEDOM FOR THE IRAQI PEOPLE!!!...THE PRESIDENT HAS ANNOUNCED THAT THE IRAQI OIL WILL BE PLACED IN A TRUST TO BE *INTERNATIONALLY* MONITORED FOR THE IRAQI PEOPLE TO USE TO REBUILD THEIR COUNTRY...SO LETS ALL FORGET THIS WAR FOR OIL SCENARIO!!!...IT'S SADDAM HUSSEIN WHO IS BURNING HIS PEOPLE'S OIL FIELDS...NOT US!!!...IT'S SADDAM HUSSEIN WHO HAS LAUNCHED "SCUD MISSLES" INTO KUWAIT...THE SAME MISSLES BANNED BY NO LESS THAN THE UNITED NATIONS...AND MISSILES SADDAM CLAIMS THAT HE DESTROYED!!!...HOPEFULLY... SOME OF OUR FRIENDS WILL DISCOVER ONE DAY THAT MARTIN SHEEN IS *NOT* THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES...HE'S AN ACTOR WHO ONLY PLAY'S A PRESIDENT ON T.V.!!!...PEACE TO ALL...STUBASS

Top of pageBottom of page   By HA HA HA (151.197.38.230) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 10:39 am:

Question: Why dont Iraquis go out to bars??

Answer: Because they can get bombed at home!!

Top of pageBottom of page   By Vonnie (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 10:49 am:

I would like to thank Tony Blair for being a real man and a friend to America. God Bless you Tony, you have taken tremendous heat from your countrymen. As a woman, mother and an American citizen I'm not a war monger. I understand the loss of life and the destruction to the psyche of children. However; we can not stand by and let others be brutalized by their own government. I support the coalition of troops that are committed to securing the freedom of the Iraqi people. I pray that one day there will be PEACE ON EARTH FOR ALL PEOPLE.

Vonnie

Top of pageBottom of page   By BCNYC (152.163.189.235) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 11:03 am:

Let's not forget that while we were all praying for our brothers and sisters on the field, the Republicans in Congress had it together enough to pass a tax cut for the wealthy that will take teachers out of our schools and police off the streets, and money out of our retirement accounts so that the rich corporate contributors to George Bush can get a $700 billion tax refund.

Truly, it's the working people of America who are paying for this war, in blood and in money. That's what we out here object to while the far-right talk radio people call everyone else un-American. Using the war sentiment to make sure black Americans don't get higher education isn't very soulful, IMHO.

Top of pageBottom of page   By STUBASS (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 11:14 am:

VONNIE: THANKS FOR RECOGNIZING A MAN WHO I BELIEVE WILL GO DOWN AS ONE OF THE MOST COURAGEOUS POLITICAL FIGURES OF THE 21ST CENTURY...TONY BLAIR!!!...HIS COURAGE IS SURPASSED ONLY BY HIS TRUE FRIENDSHIP TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE...AND HIS SINCERE DESIRE TO FREE OPPRESSED PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD!!!...WE OWE A LARGE DEBT OF GRATITUTE TO THE PEOPLE OF GREAT BRITAIN...ESPECIALLY NOW THAT WE HAVE TRAGICALLY LOST SEVERAL BRITTISH TROOPS IN OUR EFFORT TO LIBERATE THE PEOLE IF IRAQ!!!...OUR PRAYERS GO OUT TO THEM...THEIR FAMILIES...AND THEIR COUNTRYMEN!!!...STU

Top of pageBottom of page   By MickD (217.44.215.216) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 12:29 pm:

Vonnie, Stubass
Tony Blair, our prime minister has sided with GWB from day one on this score. He has spent the last six months persuading the people of this country that Britain would not be fullfilling its moral duty if it did nothing to aid the fall of Hussein and his regime from power. He has also doggedly stuck to the task in hand lending support to GWB where he can.

Here in lies the problem, Tony Blair does not speak for the majority of Britains, he has faced "trememndous heat" from his countrymen because the majority want no part in this war.

Many are concerend over the fate of those that live adjacent to the Government buildings which have been bombed in recent days. Many find terms like limited civilian casualties leave a bad taste in their mouths. Yes, Mr Blair has stood by his convictions but they are not the convictions of those he is supposed to be serving, namely us the British public. He has become the agressor in a war without the mandate of the British Public. Where is the Democracy in that!

He has heard the voice of the people, but he hasn't listened he has carried on regardless. In effect he has let me and many others down.

The way he has sucked up to the Bush administration is nothing short of sickening. I am still not convinved of Blair and Bush's motives on this one. Many believe there is a hidden agenda. All I can see is that countless ordinary people having their lives turned up side down by the US and UK Military machine.

To conclude I would like to add this, many in Britain would not call Mr Blair a "real man". I believe they would prefer to call him GWB's lap dog, and as for the "most courageous political figures in the 21st Century" Unfortunately he will simply be remembered as the other guy who went to war with Bush.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Lynn Bruce (65.60.202.214) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 12:48 pm:

Yea,that's just about how most Americans felt when Pres.Franklin D.Roosevelt sent all those troops to Europe.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Jay (24.55.210.61) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 01:17 pm:

Richie,

I am surprised that JBL, Community,EV, EAW or TurboSound hasn't taken credit for THEIR sound system's use in the war yet.

Top of pageBottom of page   By ALJAYDU (68.18.115.29) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 01:38 pm:

STUBASS, Jay and a few others, I with you 1000%. For the others, let's see what happens when the Allies makes their big push toward Badgdad. Everything that Saddam said that he doesn't have ...he WILL have.
12 years was long enough.
The U.N.? what a joke !!! Lybia/Iran??? Doesn't that something?
Tony Blair ??? Tha MAN !!!
G.W. Bush ?? Tha MAN !!!
Those that are against this thing that has gone down...what did you all want? More inspections??
12 more years??? No can do.

I was there for the first Gulf War (U.S. Navy - 78-93)

Saddam and his boyz gotta go !!

Alan

Top of pageBottom of page   By Jay (24.55.210.61) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 02:10 pm:

The US was late getting into the war in WWII.
Germany was well into genocide and had blanketed the Atlantic with 500 Submarines

The US was late in getting intelligence and acting on it before 9-11.

The US was wrong not to finish the job 12 years ago.....but relented due to world influence.

The US is NOT an imperialist country.
Americans would rather sit home and watch football, Jerry Springer or American Idol.

But there comes a time where you just can't wait to get hit in the face again.
Unless you’re completely stupid that is….

An analogy:
I heard a story about a boy that said he would never let the class bully push him around. The bully hearing that decided he would push the issue.
When the bully confronted the boy the boy immediately punched him in the face putting him on the ground. If he had waited, he would have become ground beef.

The rules have changed folks. There is now a silent, invisible terrorist enemy. In the era of far-reaching terrorism, our rights will unfortunately be somewhat compromised. Get used to it!
Be alert. Stay aware. Try your best to find a leader with the interests that are the best for you and your country. It will take the work of all of us to build a better world.
But remember, the war started before this week. We have all been under siege and still are.

The US and GB have the underpinnings of God and Country. While these concepts in the past have been greatly abused, the roots of morality, compassion and trustworthiness are still there.
But if you don't defend what you have....If you don't make a conscious effort to prevent new and greater horrors, you are destined to suffer far more dire consequences.

Every year or two there is another movie about WWII and the holocaust.
This year it is “The Pianist”.
The belief is that we might learn from it.
And that if we don’t learn from it then history is destined to repeat itself.

But the holocaust is just not 60 years ago, it is NOW.
Angola, Bosnia, Iraq. These countries do not have the Jewish media machine to tell the story.
But the stories are just as horrific none-the-less.

People and their companies will profit from this war.
General Dynamics, Dupont etc…
There are companies that have already been contracted to rebuild Iraq.
It has been said that these companies have ties to VP Dick Cheney.
Cynical folks will tell you that this is the only reason the war exists. I am not one of those.
There will always be tie-ins. But even this should not sway the bottom line.

The Dearborn Michigan Arabic/Islamic community exists because people came there to make a better life for their families.
Sound familiar??

( The irony of course is there was never a more racist city than Dearborn.! )

Top of pageBottom of page   By Julian (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 03:09 pm:

Jay,

Saying "the US is NOT an imperialist country" is like saying that Santa Claus comes around every Xmas.

What was the first thing they did when they got to Iraq? They planted a US and Marine Corp flag into the ground, before somebody with half a brain told them to take it down.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Aljaydu (68.18.115.29) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 03:28 pm:

True to that, Julian, but I believe that that was more of a display of emotions (We came, we saw, we're kickin' ass !!!) as opposed to the action being displayed as "Imperialist".
Give the troops a break, will ya?

Top of pageBottom of page   By Aljaydu (68.18.115.29) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 03:29 pm:

Jay/Stubass...I'm with you guys all the way !

Top of pageBottom of page   By Sue (152.163.189.235) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 03:57 pm:

I believe that what we're doing had to be done, and the French, remember were all for "appeasing" the Nazis in WWII -- what percentage did all but throw flowers at them when they invaded France -- so just because they and the Germans wanted appeasement again, doesn't make it correct.

We Americans are by nature isolationist, anyone who visits here and truly gets to know the country knows that, and Bush said repeatedly when he was elected that he wasn't into "nation-building." Just because it was Bush, who most of us didn't elect, changed his mind and came to the view that Saddam was a dangerous totalitarian dictator, too dangerous to leave alone, doesn't mean he's wrong.

Remember the feeling of the British toward their own Winston Churchill just before the war -- couldn't stand him. He was wrong, in their eyes, on everything -- until Hitler started on the march and proved him right.

Top of pageBottom of page   By medusa9e (66.73.1.237) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 04:04 pm:

Ok, so this is a forum, right??? right??? well, iam just voicing my opinion like everyone else, so DON'T jump down my throat, ok??? No one got so upset when we were naming the skinney singers, or the ones with the gaps N their teeth, or the ones that mispronounced certain words in their records. So, if this is a forum, don't get so personal, it's individual ideas, that make ideas. The problem is, some people don't know their own time of antiquities, they now call it HIS-story...So, can I talk??

Top of pageBottom of page   By medusa9e (66.73.1.237) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 04:09 pm:

...and by the way, I 4got 2 say, I still love yall anyway, yep I said YALL....Rap on Brothers & Sisters Rap On!!!

Top of pageBottom of page   By medusa9e (66.73.1.237) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 04:13 pm:

..and some of us just don't get it, we have NOTHING 2 do with the war anyway. Why do you think they call us MINORITY....Let Me Talk!!!

Top of pageBottom of page   By GrahamD (62.254.0.9) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 04:38 pm:

My only hope is that when Saddam is captured,he is placed in a darkened room and made to listen to Marvin Gaye's Whats Goin On Album!! this should make him realize that WE All care about the world and its probs and we are all indebted to our maker for our being HERE!
God Bless too all our Brothers & Sisters where ever you may be,may you all find Peace and love and Happiness. GrahamD.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Gary Rosen (12.234.25.217) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 05:51 pm:

I won't make a long post, but I agree with Stu and Jay on this one (although I take exception to Jay's remark about the "Jewish media machine" - the biggest "media machine" I have ever been involved with is probably this message board). The US may not be perfect, but look at our enemies over the last century - the German imperialists in WWI, the Nazis and Japanese warlords in WWII, the Russian and Chinese communists, and now fanatic Islamic fundamentalists (NOT all Muslims). Have any of them had a better way of life to offer the people of the world? The answer is not just no, it is HELL NO!

Above all, great thanks to the relatives of SisDetroit,KevGo and others who are serving our country. Our thoughts and prayers are with them.

Top of pageBottom of page   By STUBASS (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 09:42 pm:

THANKS AGAIN TO EVERYONE FOR VOICING YOUR OPINIONS...FOR THEY ALL POSSESS A LEVEL OF IMPORTANCE !!!...MEDUSA...WE ALL LOVE YOU TOO...AND APPRECIATE YOUR TAKING THE TIME TO EXPRESS YOUR VIEWS...HOPEFULLY WE ALL LEARN A LITTLE BIT FROM EACH OTHER!!!...TO MICK: THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT...HOWEVER...I WOULD HAVE TO SAY THAT LEADERS LEAD...AND THAT IS WHAT TONY BLAIR IS DOING!!!...NEVILLE CHAMBERLAIN WAS EXTREMELY POPULAR TOO WHEN HE BROUGHT "PEACE TO OUR TIME" IN THE APPEASMENT OF HITLER!!!...PEOPLE JUST RECOVERING FROM THE EFFECTS OF WW1 DIDN'T WANT WAR...AND WERE HAPPY TO LOOK THE OTHER WAY AS HITLER BEGAN HIS DEMOLITION OF EUROPE!!!...HAD THE WORLD REACTED TO HITLER IN THE LATE 30'S...MILLIONS OF LIVES COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED...BUT CHAMBERLAIN TOOK THE EASY WAY OUT...AND IT TOOK A LEADER OF A CHURCHILLIAN MAGNITUDE TO BARELY SAVE EUROPE!!!...ONTOGENY RECAPITULATES FILOGONY...HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF!!!...TONY BLAIR IS RISKING HIS ENTIRE POLITICAL CAREER ON THIS ONE...AND TO EXPRESS THE COURAGE AND FORTITUDE THAT TAKES IS MIND BOGGLING!!!...TONY BLAIR IS NO "LAP DOG"...MORE LIKE A DETERMINED "BULL DOG"...WHO WILL DO THE RIGHT THING NO MATTER WHAT!!!...WHILE NOT CLAIMING TO BE AN EXPERT ON BRITTISH POLITICS...IT WAS TONY BLAIR WHO LED THE LABOUR PARTY BACK TO PROMINENCE AFTER AN 18 YEAR REIGN OF THE CONSERVATAVE PARTY...AND LOOK AT THE THANKS HE GETS FROM HIS OWN PARTY...DISGRACEFUL!!!...LONG LIVE TONY BLAIR!!!...STUBASS

Top of pageBottom of page   By Bassn for God (24.158.71.34) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 09:46 pm:

Sue, Not to start a fight here, but if you are an American and you voted in the election, you were part of the process that elected George. Whether you voted for him or not. I do not agree with everything he has done or probably will be doing, but he has the guts to stand up and do the right thing, NOW. Can you imagine waiting for two hours to board a plane while a fingernail clipper is removed from your luggage on say Sept 11, 2001? It would not have been allowed, there would have been an uproar. Hindsight is always perfect when it comes to a mistake in reading intelligence, I know this for myself. The US should not stand by and allow any MADDASs to threaten the world even France. This is the right thing to do. The right thing is not always the popular thing, but it still must be done.
Robert

Top of pageBottom of page   By Sue (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 09:53 pm:

Bassn --
I don't think you really read my second message carefully. I posted that, even if people don't like Bush, that doesn't mean he isn't right in the matter of Iraq.

As Americans we of course have the right to not like Bush and to be against the way the presidency was chosen by the Republican-dominated Supreme Court. But while I may not support Bush, I support the president of the U.S.

You can't have everybody agreeing with every point you make. And "blue collar Republican" is an oxymoron.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Gary Rosen (12.234.25.217) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 10:14 pm:

If we could have a political arrangement where the Republicans are responsible for foreign policy and national security while the Democrats are responsible for the economy and domestic affairs, I think that would get the support of about 80% of Americans!

Top of pageBottom of page   By douglasm (68.113.15.28) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 10:18 pm:

Comment....
....I am consistantly amazed by the tin horn dictators we support, as opposed to the tin horn dictators we oppose.
Having said that, and read the posts, I think we can agree to disagree on some major points.

One point I would hope we can all agree on is that during this "war", we should put our best wishes towards all the combatents and civilians involved in the conflict, and hope it comes to a swift conclusion, with as little loss of life to all concerned as humanly possible. Fair enough?

Top of pageBottom of page   By Bassn for God (24.158.71.34) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 11:56 pm:

Sue, I am sorry, I did not mean to imply that you were not in support of the president or the troops. You stated that most of 'us' did not elect Bush. But we all elected him, we did, it happened, I saw him take the oath of office. I know that not everyone share my opinions and that is fine, I learn more from 'disagreements' than from likeminded gatherings. I guess my point, was we should support the president and stop trying to say we are all against Bush, the president. I seem to get a little wound up about certain topics and troop support is one of them. Again, I am sorry for the way I came across. I am a Blue Collar Republican and very proud of it. Please understand. Thanks Robert

Top of pageBottom of page   By Paulie3shoes (151.197.40.91) on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 12:47 pm:

wassisname?? sodam insane?? he gonna be sleepin wit da fishes him an his towelhead sons!!!CAPICE??? salami bacon!!!

Top of pageBottom of page   By LUCY (205.188.209.38) on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 12:59 pm:

HEY CREOLE,
I AGREE WITH YOU.I JUST WANTED TO SAY WE AS AMERICANS HAVE THE RIGHT TO EXPRESS OUR OPINIONS.
IF WE DISAGREE WITH ONE ANOTHER,NO PROBLEM.IT IS OUR RIGHT TO DO SO,WITHOUT HATE FOR EACH OTHER.
WHAT GIVES ANYONE THE RIGHT TO BLOW UP OUR BUILDINGS AND KILL 3000 PEOPLE?????
NOT TO MENTION THE PAST 12 YEARS OF TERRORISM.
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.
I WAS WATCHING THE MORNING NEWS ON 9/11 WHEN EVERYTHING UNFOLDED.IT AFFECTED ME IN ONE WORD...INSOMNIA.SO BAD I HAD TO SEEK MEDICAL TREATMENT.NOW WITH THIS WAR,IT'S STARTING AGAIN.
LIKE I SAID...ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

I ALSO LOVE ALL YOU GUYS AND THANK CREOLE,MY FRIEND,TO LEADING ME TO THIS FORUM.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Aljaydu (68.18.116.28) on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 02:31 pm:

Lucy...how are you? Long time- no hear from.

Thanks !!!

:o)


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