|By STUBASS (184.108.40.206) on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 11:44 pm:|
WELCOME BACK!!!...I WAS JUST THINKING TODAY...LISTENING TO THE SITSOM SOUNDTRACK...TRACK 15...THE EARLY "FUNK BROTHERS" CUT OF "THE FLICK" (I TAKE THAT TO MEAN THE WAY EARL VAN DYKE "FLICKED" HIS FINGERS AT THE KEYS AS I HAVE SEEN MY BROTHER IMITATE)!!!...THE REAL DEAL ON THAT CUT...AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED...IS THE RHYTHM GUITAR (I ASSUME IT TO BE ROBERT WHITE...SINCE EDDIE WILLIS DID THE GUITAR SOLO...AND ROBERT WROTE THE TUNE ALONG WITH JAMERSON AND EARL)!!!...LISTEN TO THE LOCKING GUITAR STRUMMING!!!...IT IS AS IF THE STRUM IS CONNECTED TO A METRONOME TUNED INTO THE GREENWICH TIME OBSERVATORY IN ENGLAND!!!...BRUCE HAS ALWAYS REMARKED AT ROBERTS "TIME LOCKING" SKILLS AS THEY WORKED TOGETHER AFTER MOTOWN!!!...ALSO...WHILE MOST TAKE INTO FIRST ACCOUNT THE DRUMMER AS THE PRIMARY "TIME LOCKER"...AND MOTOWN HAD THE "BEST"...IT HAS ALSO BEEN OBSERVED THAT IT SOMETIMES SEEMED THAT THE ENTIRE GROUP WAS SOMETIMES LOCKING INTO BASSIST JAMES JAMERSON!!!...ANY COMMENT ON THIS???...BUT DO PLEASE LISTEN TO THE RHYTHM GUITAR ON "THE FLICK"...AND YOU WILL SEE WHAT "TIME LOCKING" IS ALL ABOUT!!!...STU
|By soulboy (220.127.116.11) on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 05:00 am:|
I always thought the time-locking came from the combination of the snare drum and the cutting guitar backbeat which were in sync with each other. this would normaly strike on the 2 and 4 of the bar.this would be added to by perhaps a tambourine. This is how dr licks explained it in the SITSOM book.
I does make me wonder whether they used a master timing device such as a metronome or early drum m/c the beat is so tight. As far as the rythym guitar is concerned i thought it was the function of the rythym guitarist (assume robert white)to provide a link between the rythymic foundation and the harmonic parts of the record. it was said robert's guitar and earl van dyke's piano rythym were virtually inseperable. any melodic part could then use this solid foundation.
As far as the bass is concerned, i reckon it could be used either as a time locker or a solo instrument. allthough in the early days it's function was more to providing the rythmic foundation.
|By BankHouseDave (18.104.22.168) on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 07:44 am:|
It was the fact that Messrs White, Messina, Ashford, Van Dyke, Benjamin, Allen and Jones were all reinforcing the rhythm that allowed Jamerson to go where only he could, in my opinion.
|By Horse (22.214.171.124) on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 04:08 pm:|
I use "The Trains Leaving The Station...All Aboard" concept to the groove. Either your on it or you ain't. It's not always the drummer who plays role of the engineer. Tempo are specific due to the magic that they create per the specific groove. I know that as a drummer, when blowing down a show, going tune to tune, that I pride my self on tempo consistency night to night. This opens the door for the vocalist or solist to bring it home with the melody line. However, in the studio, which ever of the rhythym sections player's seem to find that magic lock, any great player will jump aboard. The Funks were just incredably on the same groove. During the 80's in the L.A. studio scene, there was a specific click of players that could make magic at of just about anything. Producers/Artist were just about waiting in line to get them for there next project, as if to say those playes were the "formula" to a guaranteed hit record. I was on the side lines of a Karen Carpenter session where the produce used that same group of players. After numerous vocals takes, Karen stated she didn't think the magic was there. Although the players were great and locked into themselves, everyone seemed to overlook Karens' vibe. Karen stated her concerns to the producer and he abruptly stated: If you want a f!@#ing hit I'll get you a f!@#king hit, just let me do it my way! Sad to say the outcome was not a hit. Hence, if you not on the same train when it's leaving, you might not end up at the same station.
|By STUBASS (126.96.36.199) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 02:36 am:|
AND WHO MIGHT THOSE MUSICIANS HAVE BEEN HORSE???...ANYONE THAT I KNEW I WONDER???...THANKS FOR THE "TIME LOCKING TAKE!!!...THOSE "FUNK BROTHERS" GUITARISTS AMAZE ME SOMETIMES WITH THE PRECISION STRUMMING THAT THEY DO!!!...STU
|By Horse (188.8.131.52) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 12:52 pm:|
I'm sure you kown all of them along with your Bro bruce. Greg Phillingaines - keys, David Williams - guitar, Louis Johnson - bass, J.R. - Robinson drums. Phil Ramone producing. That rhythym section cut a lot of records during the 80's. Like I said, they were great and had a lock happening, but just not on the same vibe with Karen. All the motown guitarist were heavy, and so identifyable. Even now, when I here Dennis Coffeys' intro on the Spinners It's A Shame, That just sets up the groove and makes me simply say YEAAAAAH...! That's the shit...!
|By stephanie (184.108.40.206) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 02:23 pm:|
I didnt know that was Dennis Coffey on Its A Shame!!! I knew he did the opening to Band of Gold though. His licks are so indentifiable this is wonderful I learn something new everyday on here.
|By Sue (220.127.116.11) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 02:26 pm:|
I just talked to G.C. Cameron who sang the great lead on that song, and he said the reason the opening lick of "It's a Shame" sounds so unique, is it's Stevie Wonder on clavinet doubling the guitar.
|By john c (18.104.22.168) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 03:37 pm:|
That's interesting. There was a lot of discussion earlier on the guitar intro and that never came up. I'll have to check it out.
Good to have you back, Sue.
I think the conclusion was that it was 2 guitars, probably Dennis and Robert White. Don't know who did which part though. I guess you can hear the 2 parts in stereo.
|By Sue (22.214.171.124) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 03:39 pm:|
I was part of that earlier discussion, yeah. I always figured it was two guitars, but G.C. says it's a guitar and Stevie's clavinet -- the clavinet gives it that sharp sound ...
|By john c (126.96.36.199) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 06:27 pm:|
Oh, I thought you meant 2 guitars and a clavinet.
|By Sue (188.8.131.52) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 07:05 pm:|
It's possible it's two guitars, yeah. The clavinet and the one guitar doubling, then another guitar doing rhythm ...listen and tell me what you think. It's at least one guitar with Stevie playing along ...G.C. only spoke to the intro figure, what made it unique (the doubling clavinet), he didn't specify how many guitars were on there ...
|By STUBASS (184.108.40.206) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 11:27 pm:|
HEY HORSE: THOSE ARE SOME "HEAVIES" THAT YOU MENTIONED...AND I'M SURE THAT THEY LAID DOWN SOME MAGNIFICIENT TRACKS!!!...I'M PRETTY SURE THAT BRUCE WORKED WITH ALL OF THOSE GUYS!!!...AGREE TOTALLY..."IT'S A SHAME" IS ONE BEAUTIFUL GUITAR LICK!!!...STU
|By john c (220.127.116.11) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 03:36 pm:|
I wish I could say, "I was talking to G.C. recently..." , but this forum is the next best thing. Hey, I don't even know what a Clavinet is suppose to sound like (it's a keyboard isn't it?), but I gave it a listen and can't pick it out. It kind of sounds like another instrument comes in when the kick drum starts, ...maybe. But it's in mono, and I'm using cheap headphones at my work computer, and I can't hear a thing over 5000HZ.
|By BankHouseDave (18.104.22.168) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 03:51 pm:|
Stevie had the advantage that he didn't know what you weren't supposed to be able to do with a keyboard. He deals in sounds and can make it sound like anything he wants. Because you are using a keyboard doesn't mean you can't think 'guitar', but it helps if you're Stevie Wonder.
|By Sue (22.214.171.124) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 03:54 pm:|
No we're talking about the intro -- and here it sounds indistinguishable from the guitar, it's just a sharper, weirder guitar sound. The clavinet is a modern harpsichord-style keyboard that Stevie used a lot ...because of the way a clavinet is set up it can sound guitar-ish. It's what Stevie is playing on "Superstition" ...
|By Horse (126.96.36.199) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 03:59 pm:|
A clavinet is a keyboard instrument which sounds very percussive and is very funky if played by the right player. If you want to hear a great example of the instrument just listen to Superstition by Stevie Wonder. Any keyboard players on the site may want to share more insite on the clavinet.
Stu, I remember Bruce mentioning working with J.R. on occasion in an earlier thread. I'm sure he probably worked with the rest of the players at one time or another.
|By Steve LItos (188.8.131.52) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 05:18 pm:|
The Hohner Clavinet is an electro/mechanical keyboard which has very thin strings which are struck by hammers when the keys are played. Because of this they can take the same sonic spectrum as an electric guitar. You can add guitar effects to the amplifier (Wah-Wah, Distortion, Flange, Phase, Echo, Reverb) to get a bunch of different sounds. Until very recently, replacement strings and hammer tips were not available for this instrument.
Play it in a higher register and it can sound similar to a harpsichord a la:
"When I Die" by Motherload
"Happier Than The Morning Sun" by Stevie Wonder.
Play it low or in the middle for ultra funky sounds:
"Higher Ground" by Stevie Wonder
"Free Ride" by Edgar Winter Group
"We Can Work It Out" by Stevie Wonder
Or use it sparingly for a musical accent:
"If I Were Your Woman" by G.K. & the Pips
|By Sue (184.108.40.206) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 05:27 pm:|
Or a haunting guitar-like line in "It's a Shame" ...
|By Steve Litos (220.127.116.11) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 09:46 pm:|
I just listened to the intro of "It's A Shame" about a dozen times...the guitar & clavinet have to be right on top of each other to produce that sound. The clavinet seems lower in the mix and at about 15 seconds into the song Stevie hits a couple of notes which don't follow the guitar line. Good call Sue! I never would have thought in a million years that a clavinet was on that song...until now.
|By Sue (18.104.22.168) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 10:28 pm:|
Yeah I think I hear the moment you're talking about, that the clavinet and guitar part briefly ...
I can't take credit for thinking that was a clavinet, it was just fortunate that I remarked to G.C. that I found the guitar intro particularly unique, and I didn't quite know why. He said that's because it was a clavinet giving it that extra zing.
G.C. was there for the whole recording process, because Stevie wrote the song for him, first played it for him on his mother's old piano, etc.
|By Sue (22.214.171.124) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 10:29 pm:|
p.s. Now I want a clavinet, it would take up far less space than the Hammond B3 I've coveted for so long ...
|By john c (126.96.36.199) on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 10:54 am:|
That's what I heard, when the kick comes in the guitar/clavinet lines diverge and I can hear it, (I think).