By fayette (205.188.209.38) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 02:34 pm:

ok guy's i'm not going to call no names
but some of the newer artist studio vocals
are sounding a lot better than the live concerts they do.
isn't it better to be able to sing well live than
have your voice enhanced in the studio.after all
you have to sing live sometimes.

By Eli (151.197.37.92) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 02:48 pm:

Dont get me started on this subject.
People like Ashanti, Amerie, Avril Lavigne, Vanessa Carlton sing nowhere close to being on pitch.
I witnessed all of them recently on various awards shows and ..well..yuccccchhhh....ouch......
Oy Vey!!!!!!

There are pitch corection devices such as
Antares Auto Tune but they are not magical devices and only work in small increments and will not make a vocal perfectly in tune if they are singing a half or quarter tone out of tune.

Madonna, Janet..same thing applies.
where are the ladies with the instrument known as the beautiful female human voice???

By fayette (205.188.209.38) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 03:04 pm:

i saw amerie on the soul train award. she was dressed very revealing but when she took the stage
nothing came out of her mouth.maybe she should
opt for a beauty contest and stay out of
the singing business.

By LTLFTC (12.210.76.205) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 04:45 pm:

As usual , Mr Eli makes a good point : The pitch correction devices only work in small increments. That kind of lets us know how bound and determined 'the powers that be' are about which 'artistes' they're trying to push because correcting a whole song's worth of crummy pitch is a long , boring expensive endeavor. I once saw a session for a local 60 second commecial where the producers' liked the 'singer's' voice , but his pitch was horrible. It took what seemed like forever for the engineer to straighten it out. And that was a rinkydink public access tv commercial ! Imagine going over a 4 minute song a syllable or two at a time - what a waste.

SteveK

By Sue (152.163.188.68) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 05:16 pm:

Two words: Faith Hill. Go into modeling, girl ...

She simply cannot sing.

By brianday@cwcom.net (212.137.151.229) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 06:01 pm:

thats why i never use live tracks when i spin records . they sound crap .
however there is a few exceptions
1 yellowman "comin in out of the dark" paris 1999
great atmosphere.play loud"
2 bobby womack " harry hippy" soul seduction tour
different version ,great call back by mary hippy!!
3 gene chandler " just be true".chess. he twists the lyrics , and the horny girls ,call back ,adds atmosphere to the recording.

anyone know of any others ? not studio ,with a false audiance.

By Aljaydu (68.18.114.246) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 12:36 am:

I've never seen them in concert, but from what I've been told, the ....(drums, please) Isley Brothers really sound bad in concert. Never seen them live (ain't that something??!!!??) Been told that by several folks. Bad. Sounds bad. "tay in the studio and never tour" kinda bad...
That's what I heard.

By dvdmike (65.208.234.61) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 06:54 am:

I was disappointed when I saw The Stylistics in concert in the early seventies, they didn't sound very good. Then I later found out that they weren't singing on the records. Only Russell and Airrion would be on the recordings and Thom Bell, Carl Helm and Ron Tyson among others would do the backgrounds, since the actual group itself wasn't very good harmonically. The only authentic Stylistics record was "You're A Big Girl, Now".

By Livonia Ken (136.1.1.33) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 09:22 am:

I was just reading a discussion on the subject of pitch correction in another forum. There are gaggles of artists taking it out on the road and producers who are using it heavily on studio tracks for artists who don't really need it. Even if a note sounds fine to trained ears, some producers will not rest until it looks perfect on a screen as well. The sound is usually pretty noticeable if you listen closely (and sometimes if you don't). An extreme example of what it sounds like is when it is used as a vocal effect rather than just a small adjustment like on that Kid Rock ballad that was all over the radio a year or two ago or that Faith Hill "The Way You Love Me" (at least I think it was intended as an effect ).

Regards,
Ken

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 12:31 pm:

At Madison Square Garden Years ago I saw Janet Jackson in concert with Tony! Tone! Toni! as the opening act. The Tonies and Raphael Saddiq (the lead singer) kicked a--! They had a wonderful backup band and a violinst. Most importantly, Raphael may not be a strong vocalist but he sings with real passion and spirit. As for Ms. Jackson, her band used backing tracks to "augment" their sound (strike one..). The dancers tried to sing back-up as well (strike two - you either dance or sing when you're doing back-up, not both). Janet - her voice was processed through equalization and compression to make it sound fuller, stronger and on pitch - STRIKE THREE! I could've just watched Raphael & company and gone home...
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By TonyRussi (68.18.49.69) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 01:08 pm:

All my favorite singers vocally sound live just like their records.In fact alot of the singers from the 60's that I did not care for at the time such as Lesley Gore, can really sing.Today, it seems they do not want natural singers they want models that they can present as a singer.

By fayette (152.163.188.68) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 06:47 pm:

something i was just wondering about.if artists
didn't sing background vocals the way they
should.wouldn't it be more resonable to use
male vocals if the group is male. for example
if the stylistics background was done by
other people shouldn't they use all men.because
if you listen carefully you can detect female
vocalist.

By Sue (64.12.97.7) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 07:10 pm:

I'm sorry, but that's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Think of the Four Tops' records without the (female) Andantes blending seamlessly into Duke Fakir's high tenor.

Think of the (male) Pips NOT backing up Gladys Knight because they're the "wrong" sex.

Think of Martha and the Vandellas NOT backing up Marvin Gaye on his early records.

By FAYETTE (152.163.188.68) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 07:27 pm:

sue i'm sorry but you misunderstood the remark.
undertand me ok. i said if they were going to
REPLACE BACKGROUND VOCALS FOR A MALE GROUP
THEN WHY NOT USE ALL MALE VOCALS.THE KEY WORD IS REPLACE ALRIGHT

By fayette (152.163.188.68) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 07:28 pm:

BESIDES everybody has a right to their own opinions.

By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 07:41 pm:

Yes, and we all have the right to disagree, as well.

By fayette (152.163.188.68) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 07:53 pm:

it's never classy to refer to one's opinion
as dumb.but maybe i'm wrong in assuming every
body has class.

By Mr. Magic (143.132.229.255) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 08:10 pm:

I like all the comments about such artist like Ashanti and Amerie, there voices aren't the same as when you hear the cd. I have heard Ashanti live and she sounds terrible to me. When some artist perform live it always seem like they sound out of breath. I was watching the grammy awards and when Kelly Knowland, a member of Destiny Child was performing with Nelly, she didn't sound the same. Her voice was shakey and not on pitch to me. Being a young person myself I love R&B, but I still love hearing Motown music everday.

People ask me constantly why they always hear Motown music coming from my room, and I tell them its because there voices are more in tune, and on pitch than todays artist. One other reason why I listen to Motown artist and others like Jackie Wislon is that they have incredible voices. People may find it strange that I'm young and I'm suppose to be all up in todays music, but I love the artist who didn't need some type of machine or device to make them sound better.

One of the reasons why I'm going to the Recording Institute of Detroit to continue my studies is that I want to become a record producer. What I want to do is find people who can sing very well live and in the studio. I don't believe in some device fixing voices, and thats what I think sells records. I like all the comments and they are so true about some of todays artist.

By medusa9e (66.73.14.28) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 08:12 pm:

Yessss,
The first time I heard Aretha Franklin sing live, i actually got chills up and down my spine.
She sound better N person, than she does on her recordings, and she still does to this day!

By fayette (152.163.188.68) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 08:15 pm:

i heard kelly rowlands on a last night talk show
she didn't sound nothing like she did on the
nelly cd.you would think she was somebody else

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 08:30 pm:

Sue:
I know you have a right to express yourself but to call Fayette's question "dumb" is out of line and disrespectful to her and the spirit of this forum. Please have some consideration.

Fayette:
Many of these groups have used male background singers on their records. Your mention of the Stylistics is a good example. They have used male singers (Carl Helm & Bunny Sigler, for example)on their records. If you watched "Rhythm, Love & Soul" on PBS you saw the Originals back up Edwin Starr just like they did back in the late 1960s (they also can be heard on Marvin Gaye's "Just To Keep You Satisfied" on his Let's Get It On album).

The reason why female singers are used along with male is to give certain songs an added dimension (we call it "sweetening" in the biz).
The Spinners' "Could It Be I'm Falling In Love" used female singers as a counterpoint to the lead vocals. If that song were sung by all men - lead & background - it would sound pretty boring (when the Spinners appeared on PBS' "Soundstage" in 1973, they had female background singers on stage with them). Motown was known to use female singers on some male-dominated records to give the songs added drama & power, almost like listening to mini-operas (the Four Tops' "Bernadette" with the Andantes is an example). Now, imagine that song without the female singers and with just the Tops - it wouldn't work.

The opposite can be true with female groups only using female vocals. I remember seeing Diana & the Supremes sing "Someday We'll Be Together " on the Ed Sullivan Show and I noticed right away that Johnny Bristol's ad-libbing (heard on the record) was terribly missing from that performance even though the Supremes sounded fine.

I hope this answer your questions and by all means keep asking - that's how we all can learn from each other.

Regards,
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By FAYETTE (152.163.188.68) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 08:34 pm:

THANKS KEVIN AS ALWAYS YOU ARE CLASSY.

By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 08:37 pm:

Kevgo,
That sound you hear coming from Detroit is me laughing ...

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 08:43 pm:

Mr. Magic:
When I was in college several years ago studying audio production my classmates & I did the same thing you are doing now. We listened to the classics from Motown, Philadelphia, Chicago, Memphis & Muscle Shoals as well as the British Invasion classics, the West Coast stuff (Mamas & Papas, Beach Boys) and other songs from those eras. Not only is the singing up to par but the productions, session-work, arrangements and engineering left no room for half-stepping. As I mentioned in another thread, this was an era when time was money and neither were to be wasted.

I still listen to the classics when I do production work so that I have some idea as to how to go about creating a sound that works.
Keep listening and keep your ears open. If you do that, you'll be nominated for the Grammy's Producer of the Year award in no time.

Regards,
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 08:45 pm:

Sue:
I think you need to go have a drink and chill...
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 09:02 pm:

Kev,
I'm the one laughing, and you're the one lecturing, so I think you need the drink ...cheers!

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 09:13 pm:

Sue:
You say I lecture while Fayette sees class...oh, well - you were never really my type...
That said, let's move on..
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 09:24 pm:

Kevgo: The next time you're tempted to tell me what to do ...move on.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 09:38 pm:

Sue:
Rather than say something that may be misunderstood I will refrain but not because of your last comment. Maybe my compassion for people while maintaining a level of intellect & dignity (with a dash of humor)is too much for certain folks. I'm glad some appreciate it while others can go take a hike.
Regards,
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By FAYETTE (152.163.188.68) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 09:54 pm:

KEVIN DON'T WASTE YOUR INTELLIGENCE ON
INSENSTIVE PEOPLE.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 10:03 pm:

Thanks, Fayette!
Kevin Goins - KevGo