By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 04:42 pm:| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 04:42 pm: |
This conversation started under the Phil Spector thread but deserves its own heading. There was debate as to whether a song that peaks at the lower reaches of the charts is a hit or a flop (more specifically Ike & Tina's "River Deep Mountain High" hitting #88 on Billboard's Hot 100 in 1966). As a former radio programmer, I never lived-breathed-died by the national charts - the request line was my gauge as to what was popular with the audience (and what was not!). When radio was great & fun (in other words "..a long time ago..."), stations printed up weekly charts that were available at your favorite record store (some stations still practice this art). What do you folks think?
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By STUBASS (206.135.204.2) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 04:55 pm: |
SINCE I ENDED THE OTHER CONVERSATION...I'LL TAKE A SHOT AT THIS ONE KEV!!!...OBVIOUSLY, A HIT IS A SONG THAT PASSES THE TEST OF TIME!!!...AS A RULE...TOP 10 BILLBOARD IS A MAJOR HIT!!!...HOW LONG A PARTICULAR HIT STAYS ON THE CHARTS IS ANOTHER WAY TO MEASURE A SONGS SUCCESS!!!...FROM A PROFITABILITY POINT OF VIEW...I'D RATHER HAVE A NUMBER 10 ON THE CHART WHICH STAYS THERE FOR NINE MONTHS...THAN A 1 WEEK AT THE TOP OF THE CHARTS...THEN A SUDDEN DROP OFF WITHIN A MONTH OR TWO!!!...ALSO, A TRUE HIT, SHOULD MOST CERTAINLY LEAD TO ANOTHER HIT FOR THE SAME GROUP IF MARKETED PROPERLY!!!...WHATS A HIT...IN THE FINAL ANALYSIS...IT'S A SONG THAT I LIKE AND REMEMBER!!!...STU
| By LTLFTC (12.210.76.205) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 06:40 pm: |
Evidently, something can be a hit today and sell millions of copies without being heard by anyone but it's target demographic. The biggest hits seem to be centerpieces of a multi-media campaign designed to promote the 'artist'. The song itself seems to be almost incidental , or at least further down on the list of priorites.
One of the biggest differences between now and "the day" is the regionalism we all miss. Ike and Tina's "River Deep..'was most definitely , at least in my little region, a 'turtable' hit. In the sixties , the song HAD to be the focus...unless someone was the "16 Magazine" flavor of the month , it wasn't unusual to have no idea what the singer of a certain song even looked like.
SteveK
| By Nish (66.119.34.39) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 06:44 pm: |
In the 60s, a Motown or Stax label. In the 70s a PIR label. :-)
| By Vickie (205.188.209.38) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 10:07 pm: |
Gosh, so many songs are hits with me. They may not have made it on the charts. I tend to love, love the songs that were not hits by an artist..lots of times the B side was better than the A side (hit) for me..
Vickie
| By stephanie (199.183.161.157) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 10:15 pm: |
I can give you an example of a song it only went to number 40 and that thing was played to death on the radio and I KNOW it sold a million copies.
Bustin Loose
"I feel like bustin loose"
"Bustin Loose"
I was shocked when I saw the charts and saw that Get Ready by the Temps only went to number 27 and I know that single or song rather had to go gold its one of their most known songs..and played on the radio an awful lot.
Stephanie
| By Nish (128.239.47.64) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 10:33 pm: |
I'm a big B-side/rarity lover, especially when it comes to the 60s Supremes. To me, there is just no possible way that "Where Did Our Love Go" is better than "Ask Any Girl."
There are so many songs by the Miracles that didn't make top 10, and I just can't fathom HOW that happened. I don't have my info in front of me, but "Baby Baby Don't Cry" sticks out in my mind as one of those great songs that just didn't capture the pop imagination at the time. Does anyone know the pop/R&B chart position for this song?
Steph, I know when I hear "Get Ready," I'm thinking, number 1 hit all the way.
| By STUBASS (205.188.209.38) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 11:17 pm: |
HEY ALL; I UNDERSTAND HOW ONE COULD CLASSIFY THE RECORDS THEY LIKE AS HITS, DESPITE THE PROJECT NOT HAVING MUCH COMMERCIAL SUCCESS...BUT I BELIEVE THAT ONE MUST PLACE A MAJOR CONSIDERATION ON THE ECONOMICS OF THE PROJECT IN DEFINING THE SUCCESS OR FAILURE OF A GIVEN RECORD!!!...FOR ONE THING...RECORD SALES ARE LIKE PUBLIC OPINION POLLS!!!...WHILE THERE MAY BE A SIZABLE NUMERIC MINORITY THAT LIKES OR DISLIKES A PARTICULAR RECORD...ULTIMATLY, THE NUMBERS REPRESENT WHAT PERCENT OF THE POPULATION OR DEMOGRAPHIC SUPPORTED A PARTICULAR PROJECT...AND IT ALL BECOMES COMPARITIVE AT THAT POINT!!!...IF I PRODUCE WIDGETS...AND SELL MORE WIDGETS THAN ALL OF MY COMPETITORS...THEN MY WIDGETS WERE A HIT...DESPITE THE FACT THAT A SMALL MINORITY OF WIDGET BUYERS LIKED THE FRAMITZ CONNECTER ON ONE OF MY COMPETITORS WIDGETS!!!...SELLING A LOT OF RECORDS LEADS TO A LOT OF THINGS...MOST OF THEM GOOD...NOT SELLING RECORDS LEADS NOWHERE...EXCEPT FOR THE CREATIVE ARTISTRY OF THE PERFORMER AND A SMALL MINORITY OF FANS!!!...DO THAT STUFF FOR A HOBBY...BECAUSE IT AIN'T GONNA FEED ANYBODY!!!...STU
| By Eli (151.197.38.47) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 12:11 am: |
Bustin Loose is a hit today due its use in Nelly's Hot in here which topped the charts for several weeks.
| By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 12:30 am: |
There are certain performers of whom I would like to see their work on the charts. But that's not because of the "finance."
Not being in the music industry, my only reason for buying music is to hear and be comforted by "the creative artistry of the performer."
I have no guilty feelings if the company does not make millions. As with "River Deep" I enjoy my music immensely, and had no idea how high it was on the charts.
(Btw - I am not a record collector. I am not label conscience, nor am I a chart watcher. I just buy what I like to hear. So I guess I won't comment further on this subject.) :o)
| By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 01:37 am: |
Well, I will say this. How does Michael Jackson make hits? Now there is one artist of whom I do feel sorry for. He is sick.
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 10:38 am: |
Nish:
"Baby Baby Don't Cry" peaked at #9 on Billboard's Hot 100 pop chart (may have charted higher on the R&B/Soul listings).
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By Scratcher (65.132.76.92) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 11:31 am: |
Actually, "Baby, Baby Don't Cry" peaked at number 8 Pop and number 3 R&B (Billboard).
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 11:42 am: |
Thanks, Scratcher!
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 12:08 pm: |
No comments on Michael Jackson?
| By STUBASS (152.163.188.68) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 12:34 pm: |
OK SIS: RE..."THE GLOVED ONE"...AKA...POSTER BOY FOR RHINOPLASTY...WHAT AN EXTREMELY TALENTED INDIVIDUAL WHO SEEMS TO HAVE DONE EVERYTHING WITHIN HIS POWER TO PUSH THE ENVELOPE OF "WEIRDNESS"!!!...LETS REMEMBER ONE THING...MICHAEL JACKSON...ALMOST SINGLEHANDEDLY *SAVED* THE RECORDED MUSIC INDUSTRY IN THE EARLY 80'S!!!...HIS RELEASE OF "THRILLER" AND THE ENSUING MATERIAL PULLED THE INDUSTRY OUT OF THE MORASS IT WAS IN AT THE TIME!!!...SO LETS GIVE MIKIE SOME CREDIT THERE!!!...AS FOR HIS PERSONAL DEMONS...ANOTHER CASE OF FAMILY AND FRIENDS ENABELING BIZZARE BEHAVIOR...BUT ONE MUST CONSIDER THAT THE ECONOMIC FORTUNES OF THE ENTIRE JACKSON CLAN LAY AT THE FEET OF LITTLE BROTHER MICHAEL!!!...IN MY OPINION...HE HAD IT ALL GOING RIGHT DURING THE "OFF THE WALL" PROJECT...WHICH GAVE US SOME SOLID MATERIAL...AND MICHAEL WAS STILL LOOKING *NORMAL* AT THAT TIME!!!...WHAT HAPPENED FROM THAT POINT ON...IT'S ANYBODY'S GUESS...ALTHOUGH I'M SURE THAT REMNANTS OF EARLY CHILDHOOD EXPERIENCES BEGAN TO TAKE HOLD...THUS TODAY...WE ARE LEFT WITH "WAKKO JAKKO"...AND THE SAD THING IS...HIS SENSE OF REALITY IS SOMETHING THAT MOST OF US JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND!!!...STU
| By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 12:52 pm: |
Yes, StuBass, that's why I feel sorry for him.
I remember buying one of his early LP's for my two sons. However, I purchased "Thriller" for myself. That is the only LP I purchased by Michael. After "Billy Jean" I became a big fan of Michael and began video taping everything on him until the little boys controversy.
"So what makes a song a hit" in Michaels case, it would be hard to describe.
| By LTLFTC (12.210.76.205) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 01:04 pm: |
When discussing the success of "Thriller" and it's singles, lets not forget the astronomical amounts of cash paid to independent promoters in addition to CBS' massive push. I forget which book details this - It may be "Hit Men" ; not that the singles weren't good , but that was in a lot of ways an example of the industry 'writing it's own check'. The fact that they had pretty decent product to push didn't hurt , I'm sure , but a lot of 'right place right time' elements factored in. Maybe some of Michael's problems result from the notion that it was 'all him' and he can't reproduce that ...who knows?
SteveK
| By TonyRussi (68.18.227.123) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 01:06 pm: |
It seems to me from what I remember about record sales in the 60's that in England a big seller was 100,000.copies in the US to break-even a record would have to sell between 30,000-50,000 units(this is 45's I'm talking about).My UK friends need to elaborate this correctly for us.This is info I "heard" or read from people in the business at the time.Thats why "River Deep" was considered a "failure" commercially by Phil Spector.It certainly was a major success for the career of Ike & Tina Turner.
| By douglasm (68.113.15.28) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 06:43 pm: |
I wonder if the problem with Michael Jackson not selling many records any more is not so much that he's gone "wierd", as his "style" is not the flavor of the month--or in his case, decade--any more, and that musical tastes have passed him by. As if this hasn't happened before.
And as an aside, I love Nillson's "River Deep". I know his first LP is out of print, it isn't on 'Greatest Hits", and I don't think it's on "Aerial Pandemonium Ballett".
| By STUBASS (205.188.209.38) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 09:14 pm: |
PROBABLY RIGHT ABOUT THAT DOUG!!!...WHILE MANY OF US STILL CONJURE UP IMAGES OF LITTLE MICHAEL SINGING "ABC" AND STUFF LIKE THAT...MUSICALLY AND CREATIVELY...HE'S GETTING UP IN YEARS, AND DUE TO HIS ISOLATED PERSONALITY, I DOUBT IF HE HAS MADE A SERIOUS EFFORT TO APPEAL TO YOUNGER FANS...PROBABLY THINKING THAT IT'S *THEIR* RESPONSIBILITY TO PAY HOMAGE TO A "LEGEND"...ALL THE WHILE...THESE KIDS ARE LISTENING TO EMINEM AND "GARBAGE" LIKE THAT!!!...STU
| By douglasm (68.113.15.28) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 10:12 pm: |
Stu...
...I think we've had this discussion before. I don't like Enimen either, but then, I'm 54 and it's not my music. But then, my parents didn't like The 13th Floor Elevators, so I guess what goes around, comes around.
| By STUBASS (152.163.188.68) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 10:35 pm: |
RIGHT ONCE AGAIN MY WISE FRIEND!!!...I WOULDN'T EXPECT A FUTURE GENERATION TO ADHERE STRICTLY TO WHATS COME BEFORE...AND CAN ONLY HOPE THAT THEY CAN APPRECIATE AT SOME POINT THE CULTURE OF THOSE OF US STILL HERE...SO THEY HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO LISTEN TO AND ENJOY EMINEM...I JUST HAPPEN TO THINK THAT THEY'RE LISTENING TO "GARBAGE"!!!...STU
| By Livonia Ken (206.148.225.37) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 11:29 pm: |
The Temptations "Get Ready" hit #1 on the R&B chart, but its failure to cross over to pop opened up the door for Norman Whifield to grab the Temptations' production baton from Smokey Robinson. "Ain't too Proud to Beg" charted at a respectable #13 pop and the rest was history.
Four years later, Rare Earth's version of "Get Ready" made it to #4 pop, though.
Regards,
Ken
| By Nish (66.119.34.39) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 02:35 am: |
Thanks, Scratcher. I meant to amend that statement yesterday nite after consulting my Miracles' discography. I don't know why I always think "Baby Baby Don't Cry" charted lower than it actually did... maybe because it is hardly played in my area. I'm probably thinking of "Satisfaction," (20 R&B/49 Pop) a great song that didn't chart as good as it "sounds."
NISH
| By stephanie (206.214.1.77) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 02:54 am: |
We need to get Pete Rivera from Rare Earth on this forum he can STILL sing Im amazed by his performances. I saw him live a few years ago this man can still blow and play.
If you put this guy up against todays drummers and Stewart Copeland of the Police I dont think they could hang..a dying breed if I may say so myself.
Steph
| By R&B (138.238.41.128) on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 10:19 am: |
HEY KEV,I GUESS IT'S LIKE SMOKEY SAID IN[SATISFACTION}IT ALL DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU FEEL INSIDE,THERE HAVE BEEN SONGS THAT I'VE HEARD AND WONDERED HOW CAN THAT ONE MISS AND ON THE OTHER HAND SOME OTHERS I SAY HOW CAN ANYONE LIKE THAT,BUT WE ALL HAVE OUR OWN OPINIONS.I ALSO REMEMBER SONGS BEINGS POPULAR IN D.C.AND GOING TO BALTIMORE AND NOT HEARING THEM,SOME SONGS CATCH ON WITH THE MASSES AND SOME DON'T.
| By Eli (151.197.41.234) on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 11:24 am: |
As far as what maks a record a hit is concerned, it depends on the decade about which we are speaking.
In the fifties and early to mid sixties there was what was commonly referred to as the"fifty dollar handshake" whereby the promo person slipped a nice, crisp fifty into the d.j's palm as an incentive for airplay.
Of course we all know that today, by comparison it is known as the $100,000 handshake!!!
Motown, on the other hand did not have to pay anyone as the stations were all clammoring for the next Motown record.
Also, in the past true talent and originallity were prerequisite and parammount for a successful career which led to a much longer shelff life for the ensuing product.
No pyrotechnics or booty shaking was needed to sell a song as it was based on quality songs that trancended the test of time.
Just think about it as an anaolgy..a name like THE TEMPTATIONS can be carved in stone onto the side of Mount Rushmore.
A name like N Sync cannot.
A name like ARETHA can, a name like Ashanti cannot.
The SUPREMES can, Britney cannot.
Can you name some similar analogies??
| By Eli (151.197.41.234) on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 11:24 am: |
As far as what maks a record a hit is concerned, it depends on the decade about which we are speaking.
In the fifties and early to mid sixties there was what was commonly referred to as the"fifty dollar handshake" whereby the promo person slipped a nice, crisp fifty into the d.j's palm as an incentive for airplay.
Of course we all know that today, by comparison it is known as the $100,000 handshake!!!
Motown, on the other hand did not have to pay anyone as the stations were all clammoring for the next Motown record.
Also, in the past true talent and originallity were prerequisite and parammount for a successful career which led to a much longer shelff life for the ensuing product.
No pyrotechnics or booty shaking was needed to sell a song as it was based on quality songs that trancended the test of time.
Just think about it as an anaolgy..a name like THE TEMPTATIONS can be carved in stone onto the side of Mount Rushmore.
A name like N Sync cannot.
A name like ARETHA can, a name like Ashanti cannot.
The SUPREMES can, Britney cannot.
Can you name some similar analogies??
| By Fury13 (64.31.7.220) on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 12:25 pm: |
I consider a strong regional record a hit. I find myself less thrilled with most of the #1 records in pop history. Just my taste, I guess.
For example, I just found out that "Mind Over Matter" by Nolan Strong and the Diablos (Fortune #546) barely edged onto the national pop chart in late 1962 (#82 Cash Box; it did not make the Billboard charts), yet it cracked the Top 20 in some top urban markets, like Chicago. That, to me, is still a hit.
| By Sue (152.163.213.68) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 02:47 am: |
Fury --
And if Fortune had either licensed "Mind over Matter" to a company with decent distribution or gotten good distribution itself, it SHOULD have been a bigger hit.
| By M.McLeanTech (66.159.205.61) on Tuesday, February 11, 2003 - 07:48 pm: |
I consider "Mind Over Matter" by Nolan Strong to be one of the finest works of art ever to rise out of the sewer of pop music. It is a masterpiece.
Mike McLean
| By STUBASS (206.135.204.2) on Tuesday, February 11, 2003 - 08:52 pm: |
HI MIKE: ONCE AGAIN...IT WAS NICE TO SEE YOU AT THE "SITSOM" SCREENING!!!...BY THE WAY...WHAT ARE YOU DOING HANGING AROUND THE POP MUSIC "SEWER"!!!...STU
| By STUBASS (206.135.204.2) on Tuesday, February 11, 2003 - 08:53 pm: |
SORRY MIKE:???...
| By M.McLeanTech (66.159.205.61) on Tuesday, February 11, 2003 - 08:57 pm: |
Good point! It must be nostolga about the days when I made posts to the forum all day long, only to find that idiots like you continued to type in a manner that is difficult to read.
| By STUBASS (206.135.204.2) on Tuesday, February 11, 2003 - 09:01 pm: |
NOW MIKIE: IT'S ONLY 6:00 PM PST...WAY TO EARLY TO START DRINKING!!!...STU
| By Steve Litos (209.100.86.4) on Tuesday, February 11, 2003 - 09:22 pm: |
Mike,
It's good to see you back!
-Steve
| By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Tuesday, February 11, 2003 - 10:19 pm: |
I'm listening to Phyllis Hyman "Living All Alone."
| By Bob Olhsson (68.32.96.67) on Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 01:27 am: |
I've always defined a hit as simply a record that breaks even financially.
I was always told that the bottom 50 of the Billboard chart was pretty meaningless because labels could "hype" a record that far just by shipping records around between different distributers.
When Berry wasn't happy with the company's chart performance, he hired Tommy Noonan away from Billboard to be head of promotion. Tommy is the person who invented the Billboard charts. By carefully co-ordinating distribution and promotion, Tommy was able to help us significantly improve our chart positions by having lots of stores start selling a new title on the same day.
In other words Tommy taught us how to get all of our ducks lined up in a row.
| By David Meikle (213.122.33.111) on Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 07:17 am: |
Another fine example of Berry's managerial skills and directorship.
| By douglasm (68.113.15.28) on Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 10:10 am: |
Yes Bob, but would that necessarilly make a song "a hit", or artifically drive it up the charts to give it momentium? I've often wondered if the record charts are put together in the same way some best-seller book lists are created, based on shipments and pre-sales to dealers, as opposed to actual sales to consumers.
| By douglasm (68.113.15.28) on Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 10:11 am: |
Note---I'm refering to national charts here. Local guides and best seller lists tended to reflect sales, not shipments.
| By medusa9e (66.73.5.121) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 08:56 pm: |
Hi,
I still enjoy listening 2 William Bells "I Forgot to Be Your Lover and Tryin' to Love Two"
I also enjoy the new Babyboy Balladeer named "Jaheim" he drops some of William Bells'
"I forgot to be your lover" in his new song "Put That Woman First"..check it out
| By janebse (68.63.4.162) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 10:04 pm: |
I agree with Stubass. A hit is something that passes the test of time. You like it just as much 10, 20, 30 years later as you did when you first heard it, or maybe even more.
And you could take that "test of time" and apply it to any artistic endeavor. If people still like it 600 or more years later, you've got a masterpiece. And it doesn't matter how it was ranked when it first came out.