Dear Elitists...... FORUM: Archive - Ending April 16, 2004: Dear Elitists......
Top of pageBottom of page   By Shauntrell ( on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 02:26 pm:

What has Hip-Hop done or said to you that has made the majority of you so jaded against opening your minds that you won't acknowledge the talent and skill these wordsmiths have?

Why is it that the words of a few so-called 'gangsta rappers' have turned you off to what the rest of the Hip-Hop artists have to say?

I know this is a 'Soulful Detroit' Forum and all, and Lord knows I dig back-in-the-day cats more than a little bit. I have my 'Standing In The Shadows Of Motown' DVD. I have my 'Only The Strong Survive' DVD. I have mad amounts of albums, box sets, CD's, cassettes, etc. I show love, do trust, to all who came before me that turned my ear on to something nice.....

Hip-Hop does show love to all who came before, but that same love doesn't get shown back. Why, do tell?

"The generation gap is another evil plan. The result of which divided the family structure, therefore creating a halt to the flow of wisdom from the wise to the young, and stifling the energy of the youth which is the equalizer to wisdom and age...Being of truth and understanding of all things, we must recapture the family structure-Mother, Father, Sister, and Brother-and give respect to everyone......Remember the family that prays together stays together. Put the "unity" back in the family." Kenneth Gamble

Top of pageBottom of page   By Robb_K ( on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 02:43 pm:

As a disliker (is that an English word?) of rap and hip-hop, I have to say that I don't begrudge giving the rappers and hip-hoppers the credit due their talent. I just happen to love major-key melody, as by far the most important component of what I like to listen to. I have nothing against rap or hip-hop music. It's true, that I'm not thrilled with a lot of the "Gangsta style" lyrics. But, that alone wouldn't make me dislike a song (especially if it had a great melody, and rhythm I liked, with a backing track using my favourite instruments, and vocal harmonies of the type that I like. For some of us, the new types of instruments used (keyboard, etc.) and having a heavily electric sound, or certain singing style may not be our favourite type of music to hear. That doesn't mean that we disparage the talent involved in producing that music.

Top of pageBottom of page   By English ( on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 03:25 pm:


I'm another young one who loves my people's music, period--I am not the biggest fan of current rap offerings in the world, but to say that one of the ONLY new music forms of the past generation and a half has nothing to contribute is elitist indeed.

Here are ten albums that I always recommend to non-fans:

1) A Tribe Called Quest, *The Low End Theory*
2) A Tribe Called Quest, *Midnight Marauders*
3) Public Enemy, *It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back*
4) Public Enemy, *Fear of a Black Planet*
5) Fugees, *The Score*
6) Digable Planets, *Reachin' (A New Refutation of Time and Space)*
7) Eric B. and Rakim, *Paid in Full*
8) Mos Def and Talib Kweli, *Black Star*
9) Lauryn Hill, *Miseducation of Lauryn Hill*
10) Wyclef Jean, *The Carnival*

And nowadays, people who loudly proclaiming they hate rap are enjoying OutKast's *Speakerboxxx/The Love Below*. As a former member of a collegiate chapter of the Universal Zulu Nation, I have NEVER heard a rapper or fan scream and holler about hating some other form of music.

100 years from now, if we're all still here, anthologies of black history will include a chapter on the hip-hop movement and rap lyrics. Michael Moore and a lot of other social commentators from OUTSIDE the community have recognized the importance of rap music, and the sheer poetry of a lot of it.

It is a little wearying when the previous generations sneer at what we under-35s are and what we're like, when THEY MADE US THIS WAY. The whole hip-hop movement originated as *reaction* against the INCOMPLETE victories of the civil rights movement that were being touted as progress and the resultant state of the jobless, drug-infested inner city, and as a counterbalance to disco and increasingly commercial R&B. I wish people would read about the history of the hip-hop movement, which is a good 4-5 years older than I am (and I'm in my late twenties), and read things like Nelson George's *Post-Soul Nation*, which talks about the near-DEATH of SOUL music as distinct category in the early eighties and the corresponding rise of RAP music.

YES, rap artists borrow. People act as if the great soul artists never borrowed, or that borrowing is evil. It's called homage. It's called remembering one's ancestors, which is what people of African descent *do*.

YES, a lot of rap music is materialistic, violent, misogynistic, etc. But a lot of it is NOT--and those rappers are the ones who most need commercial support, because the music industry CHOOSES which artists to support. Unfortunately, because most rap haters are talking about a music genre they know nothing about and choose not to know about, they speak about it from their misplaced disdain and ignorance.

Thanks, Shauntrell, for expressing what I've felt for a while while lurking here. It reminds me of the classic Donny Hathaway and Roberta Flack duet--where is the love? The selfish boom generation certainly doesn't give the "love" to its children that it received from its parents...

Top of pageBottom of page   By Azarene ( on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 03:33 pm:

This is like going to a rap forum and demanding to know: "WHAT DO YOU PEOPLE HAVE AGAINST SOUL MUSIC?"

It's just silly -- what's the point? Live and let live. Let people like whatever music they prefer.

When you're older, young people will be railing against you for preferring hip-hop to whatever comes after it.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Isaiah ( on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 05:31 pm:


In fairness, Shautrelle's nor English's posts have to do with loving one music or the other... Shauntrelle is asking about all of the HATRED toward HipHop at this board - unnecessary hatred as it were... I applaud them for asking that question, as well as, speaking truth to power... In fact, Azarene, what you are engaging in is the very same thing which Shauntrelle and English are accusing the old heads of this site of continually doing, and that is failing to communicate with the youth, failing to pass along all of the wisdom some proclaim to possess... That being a truism, it would follow that there would be little dis-ease in passing along a bit of that abundance without feeling compelled to shout people down, or write cowardly e-mails to the webmaster when the lex on this site doesn't quite sound like the fare at the neighborhood K-Mart...(SMILE!~)

RobbK, you are a wonderful guy in that regard, but you are rare, man... Even when I was a kid, and there was no such thing as Gangsta Rap(a primarily West Coast phenomena), HipHop came under extreme criticism from the mainstream media... For me, its not big deal, really... The youth must understand that like the Blues/Jazz/R&B before it, Rap has simply had it's baptism under fire... Cultural inventions and conventions of Black folks in America are always resisted in this way, only later to be held up as being as wonderful as apple pie... Young people need to study the history of our people here in the United States to bring clarity to this issue... You should, also, study the history of the Son in Cuba, or the Samba in Brazil... You will find that same level of resistance to people of African descent practicing their religions, as well as playing their favorite cultural music... In Brazil and Cuba - like the United States - the sound has won out, when it could have been drowned out by the persecution... English, as you said, let us thank the Ancestors for clinging tenaciously to what they brought here with them... Had it not been for their tenacity, wouldn't be no cornhuskers talking trash about how soulful they are(smile!)


Top of pageBottom of page   By Fred ( on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 05:39 pm:

For anyone wishing a deeper exploration of the connections, and disconnections, between rap and soul, I strongly suggest "A Change Is Gonna Come: Music, Race and The Soul of America" by Craig Werner. By tracing the blues, jazz and gospel impulses from their roots to the present, Werner makes an excellent case for the continuity of those fundamental strengths.

Top of pageBottom of page   By R&B ( on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 06:18 pm:


Top of pageBottom of page   By Juicefree20 ( on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 07:15 pm:

Hey Shauntrell, how are you? Let me try to answer your question as simply as possible. Now, when I was a young man coming of age, Rap was in it's infancy. It was about fun, partying & just having fun. We used to have jams in the park & invariably, there'd be an argument, someone would start shooting, end of jam. There was always that negative street element that seemed to follow Rap music.

I used to DJ at a skating rink called The Jamaica RollerDome, on Jamaica Ave & what was New York Blvd (now Guy Brewer Blvd). I started DJing there when it opened in 1980 & in the beginning, it was cool, real cool. As the Rap crowd from the 40 Projects (South Jamaica Houses)started hanging out there, things rapidly spiraled downhill. Instead of skating, or chilling, brothers would start creating drama. They would reach out & grab the crotches, or chests of young ladies skating by. They would throw skates & trip to trip people, just for the hell of it. Eventually, came the drugs & the problems that came with that. Eventually, there was a shootout there & the rink never recovered from that.

Even when Flash & other MCs had jams, invariably, there was the constant threat of being robbed, or shot. Many DJs had their equipment stolen, & that element had much to do with it. Russel Simmons was still promoting parties at colleges as Rush Productions, when he came to our rink. He gave me his card (which I still have to this very day), & due to the negative energy & element, I never bothered to use it & that was the good old days of Rap.

In 1982, a record came along that changed Rap from being about partying & introduced a more ominous overtone to Rap. I'm speaking of the brilliant song, The Message by Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five. That song changed Rap forever & ushered in the era of "Reality" Rap, so to speak. All of the "Hip, Hop & You Don't Stop" & "Party Over Here", became passe' overnight. The real was in, all of that fun Party Rap was now corny to the Rap set.

Flash forward a few years to about 1986 & we're now in the crack years. If you were there, you know what happened. The Rap industry was being infiltrated with folks that made their money from being "Sidewalk Pharmacologists", if you get my drift. That changed the game forever & the effects are still being felt. It was no longer about battling on mics. Now it became a matter of being dissed & getting revenge. The old school like LL & Kool Moe Dee, had fierce, extremely fierce battles. These battles were settled on wax, through the court of public opinion. They didn't shoot at each other, they didn't do drive-bys. They settled their beef on wax & LL increased his lengend ten-fold.

Then came Gangster Rap & the East Coast-West Coast beef. We all know what happened with that. Rap music had officialy become hazardous to one's health. Now, music was infiltrated, not only by drug dealers, but now, gangs were getting involved, with fatal results. Strongarm tatics were replacing threats with violence.

During these days, the violence increased & many innocent people, Rappers, as well as everyday folks were shot, killed & it was crazy. Tell me, did The Ohio Players ever shoot at The Commodores, because they got dissed? Did John Lennon ever try to kill Mick Jagger over music?? That's the thing that's so crazy. It got to the point where you put your health on the line if you wanted to go to a Rap show & that's ridiculous. I never heard of anyone being killed, or shot at a Temptations show.

Then the music began to be filled with all sorts of vile language, threats, disrespect of women (the B word)& overt violence. The "Keeping It Real" mentality took over, to no good end. Lyrics that once promoted fun & having a good time, were replaced with ones that spoke of shooting, killing, dying young, getting high & bitches & hoes. To most of us, that's simply not music. Why is it that byou can't play a Hip Hop CD in front of your kids or your mother. If it had a bleep track, the average Hip Hop song would consist of 30 words & 230 bleeps. Why is it that these guys can't express a thought without vulgarity? They're just cursing for the sake of cursing & that's not art & it shows no attempt at crafting a skillful lyric. This is what the majority of negativity is based on. Then there are the videos.

When you watch the average R&B/Hip Hop video, what do you see? Half-naked girls, brothers with their pants hanging off their butts, sipping Cristal & what else? What would you consider their messages to be & in what waydo they help to uplift anyone? By talking about killing someone who dissed them? By calling women vulgar names? By dressing them in next to nothing? Hip Hop isn't exactly doing itself proud. Any idiot can make a song full of curses & threats. Any idiot can pull the trigger of a gun. When are they going to come up with some solutions, instead of reciting the same old tired problems that have been stated 1,000 times?

How many of these artists even vote, or encourage their fans to vote? What exactly are the artists doing to help bring about a change for the better? Most of the ones who make the money are the worst of all. All I hear is them talking about how everyone's jealous of them, how much money they make, how they're gonna kill some nigga, how much ice they have & how many honeys they have. That's real good for them, but what does it do for the rest of us & their fans? The answer to that is nothing & their poison unfortunately infects & affects the thinking of those who are the most impressionable: the children.

Although that is not all Hip Hop music, too much of the Hip Hop music falls into this category. For every OutKast, De La Soul or Black Eyed Peas that you show me, I can show you 50 like BWP, AMG, 50 Cent, Eminem, Lil Kim (who invited us to suck her d***, which would've been a good trick at that), etc that fit right into this category. Would you brag about being shot nine times & is that really something to be proud of? That's the type of mentality that we're dealing with. How many young Hip Hop artists have we lost over the years? How many are in jail right now as you read this? Would you really call this a healthy musical atmosphere? I wouldn't. I'm speaking to you as a person who enjoyed Biggie, Tupac & Hip Hop in general.

However, I remember what it was & what it could be. It has more power than the artists realize. It could be used as a force for powerful change & could be a powerful movement. Instead, everybody wants to count their chips, ride their whips, clean their ice, kill some niggas, smoke some blunts, bag some hos & continue to "keep it real". That's why many hate Hip Hop. Hip Hop seems to be trying to commit suicide & that's sad. It has the power to be bigger than what it's become, to be better than what it's become. It just doesn't want to be, most of them just want to be paid. In my opinion, they have a bigger responsibility. How many more of them have to die so young, over BS?

If we were talking about Rock or Punk Rock & this type of behavior, what would you think?Honestly, how would you feel about music like that? What other music genre has ever had this type of life & death drama? How many Rappers have been shot, killed or arrested for trying to murder someone? Now ask yourself, how many R&B, Soul, Funk, Country & Western or Rock & Roll Singers have been in the above situations? I can answer that for you, very, very, very few. It's not even close. This is the problem that people have with Hip Hop & Hip Hop needs to do a bit better, regarding it's image. What's going on in Hip Hop today is not what Hip Hop was about. They need to read up on their roots & discover where they went wrong. I hope that this answers, or at least, explains the answer to your question.


Top of pageBottom of page   By Lynn Bruce ( on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 07:34 pm:

Isaiah,right on the money.
The only music that's popular in America (that I can think of) that wasn't brought up out of Africans group thought and then watered down to be accepted by people in charge might be classical(european),blue grass(scottish and irish),country, and native american.Of course there's a lot of ethnic music but I'm talking popular.

Shauntrel,do you think the older people liked the kind of early rock music that myself and a lot of the older musicians on this site played back in the late 50s and early 60s.
Hell no,they told us that it was crap,it took no skill,it was to loud,ect. Well maybe they were right but it's still around and a lot of people still love it.

Don't get your pants in a knot when older people dis your favorite music,it's still your music and it'll still be around when your older.

P.S.Talk about falling behind.I'm still slapping on a "Last Poets" album when I want to hear rap.LOL

Top of pageBottom of page   By Lynn Bruce ( on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 07:44 pm:

Juice,I wish I wouldn't have popped up after your very heavy thoughts.It's like taking the stage after James Brown walks off.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Azarene ( on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 10:02 pm:

Music isn't cool unless the older generation sort of doesn't get it.

What fun is there in having old heads nodding to your tunes? The older generation didn't like our music of the '50s, '60s, '70s ...that's life.

There's a big difference between hating something, and just being indifferent to it. I don't like modern country, but I don't hate it. Most soul/R&B fans like me are benignly indifferent. Live and let live, not our choice of meat.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Isaiah ( on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 10:21 pm:

Azarene, again, read the comments at this board as regards the HipHop artists and its culture, and you would not use terms like "benignly indifferent." That is a patently absurd statement, and shows you really are not attuned to the pulse of this board, or the society in general... But, once again, the question is not about whether the music is liked by older generations, but why it is hated so much... If one hates something, clearly they are not indifferent to it, and certainly not benignly indiferent...


Top of pageBottom of page   By Rodmann ( on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 10:42 pm:

First off let me start off by saying that I'm a 23 year old who grew up on Hip-Hop. My favorite artists were Big Daddy Kane, 2Pac, Biggie Smalls, Redman, Wu-Tang Clan, Snoop Dogg, Dr.Dre, Nas, Jay-Z, and even some No Limit artists like Master P, C-Murder and Mystikal. I just loved rap. LOVED IT! I had all of the latest cd's at the time and even had subscriptions to The Source, XXL and Vibe Magazines. Just 10 years ago I remember reading about C. Delores Tucker and Dionne Warwick speaking out against Rap and thinking that they were just a couple of hateful and jealous old hags who didn't want to see young Blacks succeed. HA! If only I knew back then what I now!

Rap was great when I was a teenybopper who was young, dumb and full of cum but what good is it now that I'm a young father working on getting my MBA and having to compete in that rat race known as the work force? I can't get high all day like Snoop, Styles P, Method Man and Redman tell us to do. I can't be selling tons of drugs to my own community like Jay-Z tells us he did before his music career took off in almost all of his rhymes. I can't "run around the MF'n club bustin' nigga's heads" every weekend like Lil' Jon and his Eastside Boyz tell us to do. I can't put myself in a position to get shot 20 times the way 50 Cent brags and tells us he did in all of his rhymes. If I did all of these things and had to suffer the consequences like unemployment, addiction, prison or death who is going to take care of my baby girl? These rappers who promote this stuff sure in the hell ain't!

I first started becoming disgusted with Rap after 2Pac and Biggie died when Puff Daddy and his goons took over. 2Pac wasn't the most positive character but at least he gave us a few socially conscious songs on his albums. Biggie wasn't the most positive character either but he had a witty way with words that would put some of the top comedians to shame. What has Puff Daddy and rappers like him ever offered us from a musical standpoint? What do I care how much money and how many "bit*hes" someone's got if they ain't sharing it with me? What has Snoop Dogg ever rhymed about that was positive? All I hear him talking about is smoking weed all day and "pimpin' bit*hes". For that matter what has Eminem (I could right a thesis on how much I despise his music), 50 Cent, Ludacris, Lil' Jon, Lil' Kim, Trina, the Ying Yang Twinz, Chingy, Fabolous and most of the other top rappers offered us from a positive musical standpoint? Every now and then you might get a socially conscious rapper like Common and A Tribe Called Quest or someone who uses clever sampling like Ghostface and the rest of the Wu-Tang Clan but these rappers are definitely in the minority.

All White people aren't expected to embrace Hard/Grunge/Metal/Satanic Rock artists like Marilyn Manson. Why are ALL African-Americans today told that they MUST embrace rappers who rap about drug dealing, weed smoking, spending illegal money, killing "niggas" and pimpin' "bit*hes"? Why MUST we be obligated to support folks who have never given anything positive back to the Black community though music or any other way? But if we don't support them we are sellouts who are just hatin' on them! Huh?

And let's not even get into the subject of musical talent! Whew! Go to this link and check out The Billboard Hot 100, Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Singles & Tracks and Hot Rap Tracks charts and please tell me which black "artists" of today have authentic musical talent and are making it on the charts. Who can read or play music? Who can arrange and write music? Who can play an instrument besides a beat machine and sampler? Who can really sing? Who has something constructive to say? There are a few but the pickins are slim! How did it all go so wrong when folks like Roy Ayers, Curtis Mayfield and Marvin Gaye left us such a rich musical legacy? The White Rock bands aren't much better but at least they are encouraged to pick up an instrument!

Shauntrell, no one is telling you that you can't enjoy Rap music and make these rappers role models for your kids but you can't get angry at people who don't share your enthusiasm about it. Some of us prefer the excellent singing and REAL musicianship and live instrumentation with somewhat POSITIVE lyrics that we get from Classic Soul. This ain't HATIN' this is just COMMON SENSE!

Top of pageBottom of page   By ~medusa~ ( on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 11:41 pm:

I agree with U Azarene, this is a Forum about Soul Music...Rap should be discussed on a Rap Forum...
No one is hating Rap, we just don't care to spend our time discussing Rap on a Soul Music Forum, otherwise we would be on a Rap Forum discussing Rap.
I don't think it would be fair to discuss Soul Music on a Rap Forum either.

Top of pageBottom of page   By JoB ( on Sunday, March 28, 2004 - 03:47 am: have pretty much expressed my sentiments on the matter...I do not HATE hip-hop either, it's just that sometimes, the bad in it seems to outweigh the good. The few rap CD's that I do own, the profanity/vulgarity factor is little to none.

Nor do I wish to support those that chose to brag about and flaunt going to jail, getting shot, shooting others, etc., as if it were the thing to do. Hard-working brothers who maybe cannot afford the ice, cars, women, etc., and not willing to be "down" (i.e., shoot someone else who gets in their face, or at the very least, beat their ass), being referred to as "suckas" or "punks"...frankly, I'm tired of it all, and no longer make excuses for my growing dislike for most hip-hop out today. Remember when they got together and made the song "Self Destruction"??? Unfortunately, it doesn't seem as if too many got the message.

Don't get me wrong, there are many rap artists whose music and message I can truly appreciate, and will continue to support them in buying their music. But as for the rest, well, the last straw was some time ago when I was watching TV one day, and happened upon a Trick Daddy video...apparently he was on house arrest at the time of filming, and chose this video to advertise being on house arrest like a DAMN FOOL...there he was, dancing and hopping around with that ankle bracelet thing on, showing it off, doing close-ups of it, like it was the coolest thing anyone ever saw. Maybe he thought he was "keeping it real", but when I think of how many little boys will watch that video, and think of how cool it is to be on house arrest, my blood boils...and unfortunately, he's not the only one doing stupid sh*t like that...

Although I do not want to sound totally misunderstanding of those rap artists...I agree with the poster who said something about the INCOMPLETE civil rights movement...a lot of them are just acting out the frustration felt by many young black men/women in the best way they know how - through their lyrics. I'm not downing any of them for that, but if they could only realize that some of the music that they create inspires and ultimately causes more violence and damage than good.

And it's obviously not going to get any better, but worse, until we stop this foolishness of outblinging one another and killing one another (hate to say it, but I'm sort of glad that MLK and Thurgood Marshall did not live long enough to see all of this), and learn to unify. I'm sorry, but the few Lauryns and Talibs and Commons that are among us, are GREATLY outweighed by the 50's, Jay-Zs, etc. Yes, Pac had some good messages, but think about it which did he portray more, the positive or the negative? I remember "Keep Ya Head Up" very well, but you know what I remember the most about him?...the song he did where he attacked Biggie and crew, and the whole sort of battle they were involved in when he died. Using Nas as an example, for every rapper that has an "I know I Can", they've got at least 5 "Ether"s.

That is the biggest problem I have with most hip-hop. As far as the music/creativity/sampling thing goes, most of it, though I do prefer real and original music myself, most of it I can deal with, let's just say some of it's pretty darn catchy, and sounds good on a decent stereo system/club/etc., and has me nodding my head to it by the end of the song (it's "aiight" I guess :o)...producer Kanye West has been making a fortune off of what I like to call "chipmunking" old songs, and turning them into the hooks for rap songs (i.e., speeding up an older song to make the voice sound high-pitched and squeaky, like they used to do on Alvin and the chipmunks :o)...maybe not too high on the creativity scale, but pretty ingenius in terms of knowing what'll make the $$$$...Luther, Chaka, and now Lenny Williams...I wonder who'll be his next victim for their song to be murdered? :o)

Top of pageBottom of page   By BankHouseDave ( on Sunday, March 28, 2004 - 05:02 am:

There is so much wisdom and profound thought on this forum, not to mention fine writing. I keep feeling someone should get these posts up on the sides of buildings where everyone can read and benefit from them. We're never all going to agree, but at least we get the differing viewpoints so well expressed that we can continually modify our opinions just that little bit.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Juicefree20 ( on Sunday, March 28, 2004 - 02:42 pm:

I have to say that I liked the way that Kanye used Marvins' Distant Lover in his song. It wasn't mangled, he used it pretty tastefully.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ju ( on Sunday, March 28, 2004 - 02:51 pm:

"...I agree with U Azarene, this is a Forum about Soul Music...Rap should be discussed on a Rap Forum... "

Mudusa my dear, why should we not talk about Rap here when we talk about everything else under the sun here?

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ju ( on Sunday, March 28, 2004 - 02:51 pm:


Top of pageBottom of page   By ~medusa~ ( on Sunday, March 28, 2004 - 03:42 pm:

well~~~~just becausssssssssssse (LOL)

Do they talk about Old School music on a Rap Forum????

~~~~~~~Rap aint even Music~~~~~~~~~


Top of pageBottom of page   By Isaiah ( on Sunday, March 28, 2004 - 04:12 pm:

Ju, yo, just like a pretty woman to break a brother's heart(LOL!)

Lady Medusa, are you saying we should not discuss the Beatles or Paul Winfield's death, or Who's gone play Lena, Janet or Beyonce??? Hmmmm, headin' down that slippery slope, eh???(smile!)


Top of pageBottom of page   By Juicefree20 ( on Sunday, March 28, 2004 - 06:08 pm:

Though many generations have had this argument, I don't recall having this argument, where Soul music was concerned. My parents loved the Soul music of the 60s & 70s. It seems that this argument applies more frequently with Rock & Roll, Punk Rock & Rap. Our younger posters will understand our feelings once they raise a family & mature a bit more. At that time, they will realize what we're saying. Twenty year olds think like twenty year olds. Many of the more rebellious Hip Hop artists, grew & realized that they have a bigger responsibility to their fans. Remember the young Eddie Murphy? How did he change as he matured & how have his movie portrayals changed? It's simply called growing up & they will understand these things as they mature further.

Top of pageBottom of page   By ErikT.O. ( on Sunday, March 28, 2004 - 06:56 pm:

Hi English- For sake of argument with respect to rappers not reciprocating the negativity of others and the types of music they play, lemme say Ice T used to diss 'that Luthor Vandross shit' and Schooly D's "No More Rock n Roll" disses flamenco music- just kidding... but they're just a couple of examples, I haven't even finished reading the thread but I wanted to mention those 2, I'll check back & finish the thread in a bit...

Top of pageBottom of page   By Erik ( on Sunday, March 28, 2004 - 07:44 pm:

...liked the rest of it, I'd chime in some more but for now I'll leave it with reiterating Rodman's sentiments about the mean spiritedness- and imagine a 4 Tops song about shooting Wilson Pickett... also, I mentioned this on another thread, but I think touting about criminal behaviour is questionable, but lying about it is really bad and I DON'T mean 'bad' as 'good'. The most active criminal I know (active as in doing time in '04) is a guy I work with who's broke, has hep C, a number of drug habbits to pay for, in addition to being on the methadone orange juice program, and he pretty much jumps & hides every time he sees a cop because there always seem to be warrents out on him. "Da Life" is no party, I've known more people like that but I wanted to come up with a current anecdote. At 31, he's also younger than me & looks noticably older, jail ages some people fast...

Top of pageBottom of page   By Isaiah ( on Sunday, March 28, 2004 - 07:58 pm:

Damn, Eric, that guy sounds like Frankie Lymon to me(LOL!)But, seriously Eric, have you listened to Garland Green's Jealous Kinda Fella series circa the late '60's and early '70's??? Did you, by chance, hear that Little Willie John died in jail after stabbing a cat in a bar??? These men weren't even hiphop cats, they came from the pristine, sweet, laid-back world of SOUL and R&B(smile!)


Top of pageBottom of page   By ErikT.O. ( on Sunday, March 28, 2004 - 08:15 pm:

Absolutely Issiah, but they didn't build their damn recording careers on that sheet! Sam Cooke, James Brown, Ike Turner, I know soul has some nasty dudes in its midst, like rock n roll (why is Michael Jackson a dirty pedo while guys like Jimmy Page who were known to like 'em young get a free pass?)... but the malevolence wasn't worn like such a badge of honour, and they weren't so hypocritical as to tell lies glorifying a criminal life style that just doesn't play true.

Top of pageBottom of page   By ~medusa~ ( on Sunday, March 28, 2004 - 08:52 pm:

Isaiah,U can discuss whatever it is U want 2...
this is not my Forum, I'm just a member (I think)

Top of pageBottom of page   By Eli ( on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 11:55 am:

Im totally witcha, JoB!!!! And then some.
(Sorry Mel. had to do that, mate!)

Top of pageBottom of page   By Livonia Ken ( on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 11:58 am:

I think there are are a small number of people on the forum who are dismissive of rap in a close-minded way. They seem to be the target audience for this thread, and as far as I can tell none of them have posted. That being said, there's certainly a lot to chew on in the subsequent responses.

Personally, as a guy in his mid-30s, I like a lot of rap music, but am somewhat depressed on the direction it has taken. I find it hard to believe that rap artists really feel the need to express themselves by demeaning women and promoting criminal behavior as often as it happens. As such, I feel there's a certain amount of culpability on the heads of the folks marketing the music and, yes, the kids from all walks of life who are demanding more of it.


Top of pageBottom of page   By Vonnie ( on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 12:14 pm:


You expressed my feelings, I DO NOT HATE RAP. I like all types of music; however I prefer R&B. I do have quite a few Rap cds and the ones I have I enjoy. So what's the BEEF?


Top of pageBottom of page   By oldschooldawg ( on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 04:51 pm:

I miss the OLD rap..."Rappers delight"...the "Breaks"...I can't bear to listen to the stuff they are putting out now. I really don't see where these guys are talented. That's just my opinion. Can't even watch Soul Train any more...they should call it "Rap Train".

But to each his own. Like an earlier poster said...we as a people shouldn't be FORCED to like and embrace rap. We all don't share a brain...we certainly dont' share musical tastes.

Top of pageBottom of page   By DyvaNaye ( on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 04:58 pm:

Oldschooldawg: Stick you hand out casue I am slappin you five...on the black hand side...
I long for the days of Curis Blow, Dougie Fresh,Whodini, Run D MC, Cold Crush Brothers, Treaterous Three, Grand Master Flash/ Afrika Bambataa, and heck yes, the FAT BOYS...cause you know their down by
PS: They should call it 'Wrap It Up Train' and take that mess off. Only show I know where my nephews sit and watch and pull money out to pay the dancers through the TV set. Cheap Porn.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Juicefree20 ( on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 05:36 pm:

I've yet to read where any of Hip Hops defenders has explained the value of vulgarity, profanity, mysocgeny, murder & violence in the lyrics. I haven't heard anyone explain the negativity of the videos. Why are half of the ladies almost buck naked in 90% of the videos? I don't see these questions being addressed, much less explained. It you took those elements away, Hip Hop would be as it used to be. All I know is that if our Soul artists sang lyrics like that, we wouldn't care for them much at all.


Top of pageBottom of page   By Juicefree20 ( on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 05:48 pm:

This is an additional response to the statement that Hip Hop shows love to the old school. When you consider the fact that 80-90% of Hip Hop songs sample the old school songs, there should be love shown. Without those old school songs, what would have been the foundation for 90% of their songs? What percentage of Hip Hop songs are hits without those samples? What percent are original compositions? That's something to consider.


Top of pageBottom of page   By Galactus ( on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 06:06 pm:

I've opened my mind.....remember when it all began in the late 70s......I gave it a thorough look....and decided, "Nope....don't like it. I prefer funk � where instrumentation plays a much bigger role � if I want hardcore r&b."

Just because someone decides they don't like something doesn't mean their mind is closed. Maybe some of us have looked into it and made a decision. It's a personal decision and a matter of taste. I could care less about hip hop, rap or heavy metal. Just don't care about those forms of "music" at all....If someone else does, that's cool.....But my decision is NOT ill-informed....

I'm happiest listening to positive forms of the art of music.....or listening to music, lyrics and beats I can relate to.

Top of pageBottom of page   By JoB ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 02:32 am: are certainly right about that one...all of the "soul" has left the train, and they really need to change the name of the show to something more befitting :o)

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ju ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 02:53 am:

Medusa U said, " ~~~~~~~Rap aint even Music~~~~~~~~~

JU))))))))))))))))))))))))))(smile) "

Medusa that was not nice. What am I going to do with you? You are such a bad girl, you need to be spanked (smile)!

Top of pageBottom of page   By Richard Felstead ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 03:55 am:

When Rapper's Delight was released many years ago, the music had it's knockers.
"It's a fad" they said. Remember, even though it wasn't sampled, they still used Chic's Good Times bassline.

Bernard Wright had a track called Haboglabotribin'on an album called Nard back in 1981. That could be interpreted as rap in it's infancy.

That passing fad is still around 25 years on.
Personally, I like some forms of rap, if it's done well, with a bit of creativity.

I'm not that keen on hip-hop for the same reasons that Job, Rodmann, and Juicefree have explained. I could not have put it better myself.

There can be big differences between rap and hip-hop.

The direction hip-hop has gone in is not altogether a healthy one, with name calling, and put downs. To much violence is now attached.

Rap is different, certainly on the tracks I've heard come out in the last couple of years. It can be very creative, and positive and also retain that fun element, which is sadly lacking in hip-hop today.

I'm not closed minded to rap at all, even when samples of older tracks are being used, if they are done well.

There is a wealth of music to be sampled from the 70's & 80's.

Not much music could be sampled from artists in 20 years time though, when they try and find an original tune from the last 15 years or so.

Not enough original music and rifts are being made right now, which will limit the creativity of artists in the future. The pot will have been dipped into many times by then.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ju ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 04:11 am:

Hip Hop is what you are. Rap is what you do. Hip Hop is, say, like Soul. You have it, you feel it. Rap is Hip Hop's music. Hip Hop is not a different form of music from Rap. Rap is a subset of Hip Hop. I hope "Hip Hop" doesn't get jacked.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Richard Felstead ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 07:31 am:

I know what you're saying Ju, perhaps I didn't explain myself properly.

If an artist raps on a mainly R&B cut, that also has vocals that are sung, then it's not considered hip-hop, or certainly I don't class it as hip-hop.

I stand corrected if i'm wrong.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Eli ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 07:44 am:

I may be wrong, but I believe that Soul Train no longer airs in Philly, thank heaven!!
What a travesty of a once great institution.
Soul Train..RIP!!

Top of pageBottom of page   By Sudi Kamau ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 11:24 am:

I was a teenager when Rapper's Delight and all that stuff came out. I hated it. Like Galactus, I respected Funk as a more hard-core R&B subgenre. In fact I repsected Funk above most other facets of R&B because of the self-contained and innovative nature of the groups. To me, Rap was the antithesis of Funk, born of Disco, with mechanical drum tracks and general cheesiness passing itself off as cool.

Am I narrow-minded about Rap/Hip Hop? Maybe, but I don't care. I know what I like. As a matter of fact, every once in a blue moon I hear Rap that I find reasonably entertaining, until I get bored with it. The musical content of Rap product has probably gotten better to some degree, but not enough to interest me very much.

I can eagerly appreciate Jazz, Blues, "Classical", R&B in most of its various forms, Gospel, Afro-Cuban, various Brazilian forms, Traditional African forms and High-Life, Calypso, Blue Grass, the "groovier" Polka bands, and small doses of some of the more traditional Country & Western and some Pop/Rock - to name a few. So if finding Rap/Hip-Hop largely irrelevant or annoying makes me narrow-minded, so be it. I've heard, analyzed and performed enough music - including work behind an occasional rapper - to be able to develop informed preferences.

Rodmann makes a good point about the stereotyped expectation that blacks support Rap when whites are not automatically expected to embrace things like Heavy Metal. My observation is that the industry gate keepers have systematically narrowed the available options in the black end of the record market over time, and basically shoved Rap down our throats. The problem is one of context. Black people who are good with the idea that you don't have to know much about music or be able to play an instrument or sing in tune to be a pop star may be well served by the current market. But, there's not much out here for the rest of us except old records.

That may be a little over the top, but the point is that it's rather arrogant to assume that others are ignorant because they don't embrace what you like. When I was growing up, my elders would point out the sameness of stuff that I thought was full of variety, and the general lack of musicality of some of my favorite groups. I always had some lame adolescent argument that I'd try to use to put them hip to the music, but in the back of my mind I knew that they were basically right. I'm grateful for that, because if I'd been allowed to remain wise in my media-fed conceit, there's a lot I would not have learned over the years.

As little as I think of Rap/Hip-Hop, I have no illusion that a person has to be stupid or juvenile to appreciate it. There are legitimate reasons for the appeal of the genre and culture. I just don't find them compelling. I will have a lot more respect for Rap/Hip-Hop enthusiasts when more of them demonstrate an understanding that there are legitimate reasons for not embracing the genre and culture, and that you don't have to be antiquated or parochial to take that position.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ju ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 02:11 pm:

You can take a music track and have someone sing over it, and then someone else rap over it. The rap track will innately sound better and more electric and energetic and dynamic, etc. This is what I have learned from my quality control dept. (my friends and relatives). This is why Rap has taken over.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ralph ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 02:17 pm:

It would seem to me that it would depend on who is doing the singing. You may need to re-assess your QC department.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ju ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 02:23 pm:

Nope. A rap innately is more dynamism and had more energy that a sung song. My quality control department is by extension the world, what's on the radio??? RnB has been buried by Rap, but the backing tracks are essentially the same.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ju ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 02:27 pm:

A rap innately is more dynamic and has more energy than a sung song*

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ju ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 02:42 pm:

Put it like this, you take the best rapper and the best singer and record them to seperate but identical tracks... the rap version will sound hotter!

Top of pageBottom of page   By Galactus ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 02:44 pm:

Amen to that, Eli.

I can't beat to look at Soul Train anymore.

Just makes me sad.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Shauntrell ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 02:51 pm:


C'mon. Have you heard the crap bleeding from stereo speakers lately? To be honest, I can't tell the difference between an R&B cut and a Hip-Hop tune nowadays...........

Top of pageBottom of page   By Sudi Kamau ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 05:05 pm:

Boy, talk about chauvinism!!!! Whew!!!!!

Top of pageBottom of page   By Isaiah ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 08:12 pm:

Sudi Kamau, you blew a straight haughty riff up above about the "cheesiness" of rap, "passing itself off as cool", and you, now, are saying that it Ju's remarks bespeak his chauvinism???(SMILE!~) Brother go back and re-read your remarks, and then ask for that post to be deleted(smile!) You cannot be serious...

By the way, Rap is way older than disco, brother... It has it's roots, perhaps, in early Black radio, as well as the Jamaican Soundstages, where the DJ's there rapped over instrumental breaks...


Top of pageBottom of page   By Ralph ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 08:19 pm:

Absolutely Isaiah,
DJ Frantic Ernie Durham was all over a record. Intro...breaks...whatever. And he was awesome!

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ju ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 09:34 pm:

Sudi, people are voting with their dollars worldwide. A lot of folks are in denial around here. Big denial. Like it or not, Rap is King and has been and will be for a long time. I love RnB more than Rap, but I know what time it is.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Rodmann ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 10:01 pm:

Excellent points Sudi, JoB, Galactus, Erik, etc. People shouldn't be obligated to support a style of music that they don't (for several good reasons) even if it is "king".

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ju ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 10:17 pm:

Nobody's asking people who don't like Rap to buy it, and the tens of millions of folks worldwide who buy it aren't under any duress when they do, either.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ju ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 10:18 pm:

Why are you always quoting me, are you trying to start something?

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ralph ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 10:40 pm:

Let's all settle down. We don't need to get into any fights over this.

However ( because here is always a " however " with me ) Ju, just because you and your QC department feel that certain rythym tracks sound better with a rapper than a singer does not necessarily make it so. It is an opinion that you and your group hold. you must realize that the love of music and it's popularity or lack thereof, is based solely on the opinions of those that listen to it. To label those of us who are more into R&B, ( Thank God ) Shauntrell loses the perspective and his side becomes the group of elitists that they are accusing us of being. It's a situation where no one is right or wrong. It's just a matter of preference. As I said, Thank God I'm where I'm at.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ju ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 10:54 pm:

I agree that it's all a matter of preference. i didn't call anybody an elitist. Matter of fact there are old threads where I say just what you said, it's a matter of preference. It's just the right now THE WORLD QC DEPT is prefering rapping over singing on their RnB tracks. The evidence is there in sales, chart listings, airplay, etc

Top of pageBottom of page   By Pogo ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 10:56 pm:

You mentioned Frantic Ernie. You from Detroit? Used to love the Frantic One way back when.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ralph ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 11:38 pm:

Yes Pogo, I'm from Detroit and was a BIG Frantic Ernie fan. When Bill Doggett's Honky Tonk would start he would rap....

Bill Doggett if you please, with his organ keys on his chubby little knees..

Ernie was cool.

Ju, I didn't say that you used the term elitist.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Pogo ( on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 11:57 pm:

Maybe we should start a Frantic Ernie thread. I know there's many stories about Mr. Durham out there but probably shouldn't discuss it here.

Top of pageBottom of page   By JoB ( on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 01:54 am:

Ju...just because "the world" (as you say, when in actuality it's the part of the world that is being catered to by radio and record companies and the media in general, which is understandable, just as my parents, who were themselves teenagers at the time, were being catered to in the 60's with Motown) QC department has chosen it, that doesn't necessarily make it the better form of in point, look at American Idol. The "singers" who make it to the final rounds ain't necessarily the best, they just have more friends voting for them.

I'm not sure I understand why this is such an issue, anyway. Contrary to popular belief, I don't think anyone here is on a national crusade against rap music (I don't THINK so :o), most of us just have certain reasons that you won't find a lot of it in our music collections, just as some of us don't have a lot of country, heavy metal, or Yanni :o)...personally speaking, it just AIN'T MY MAIN THANG...and no amount of "Why Do You People Hate Rap Music" threads is going to change that (though again for the record, I don't hate rap music). Just cause I'm young and black doesn't mean I have to listen to rap, the same way it doesn't mean I have to run track or eat fried chicken (although the other 2 stereotypes, I fit perfectly). But I don't HAVE to :o)

Trying to force-feed a preference on someone is IMO petty and desperate. The entire world is not going to think alike, or embrace everything the same, plain and simple. This whole thing reminds me of that movie where the aliens took over the earth and brainwashed everyone to think alike, with that glazed look in their eyes...or maybe let's start a thread entitled "Why Doesn't France Embrace and Accept American Culture As Their Own???"...simple - they have their own already, and are getting along just fine, thank you.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ju ( on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 02:32 am:

I didn't Rap say it was better. I prefer RnB to be honest. And remember I said that "It's a matter of preference." I said that quite clearly above. I did say that over Rhythm and Blues style music tracks, more music buyers are prefering rapping than singing, and that there is measurable evidence to affirm this, if you don't see it all around you. It may be 60%-40%, 70% - 30%, or whatever, but the scales are tipped.

Top of pageBottom of page   By JoB ( on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 07:19 am:

I agree with you...the only problem I've got is with those that feel as if EVERYONE has to listen to it all, and chastise others for their personal preferences being different than what is popular.
It seems like every couple of weeks or so, this same thread gets started, and we who do not necessarily prefer hip-hop are put on the defensive all over again for what we chose and chose not to listen to. Like I said earlier, I'm not making any more excuses. Rap music is not my cup of tea, simple as that. I don't hate it, I just don't like what most of it has come to represent lately. They just need to get over it, period :o)

Top of pageBottom of page   By Sudi Kamau ( on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 10:45 am:

Isaiah, my comments related my impressions of the Rappers Delight era of Rap at the time. I thought the stuff was cheesy. I still think that stuff was cheesy. I am similarly non-plussed, albeit for different reasons, about most of what has come after. But, I am only representing that as my opinion.

I merely offered my two cents as opinion, and even qualified it a bit with the acknowledgement that some of it might be over the top. In fact, if YOU'LL reread the comment to which you refer, you'll notice a bif fat "[t]o me" right at the beginning of the sentence, which follows a clear statement of preference that should make it obvious that this was my point of view and my point of view alone.

In contrast, we have people who have tried to represent preference as some kind of scientifically observed phenomenon. Rap versus singing over the same background track is more dynamic to whom? More dynamic as measured how? To merely groan about the chauvinism involved in that assertion is a demonstration of great tolerance.

As for the roots of Rap, I know what you're saying, and you can even go back further to things like Louis Jordan's "Beware," "Look Out," and "Saturday Night Fish Fry." My opinion is still that in the US, disco did a lot to pave the way for the popularity of Rap. If I'm wrong, I stand corrected.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Sudi Kamau ( on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 10:54 am:

Ju, have you ever heard of the "bandwagon" fallacy?

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ju ( on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 01:24 pm:

"... Rap versus singing over the same background track is more dynamic to whom?..."

A helluva whole lot of people in the world, evidently. Have you looked at a Billboard chart lately?

"More dynamic as measured how?"

Have you looked at a Billboard chart lately?

Some folks can't see the forest because of all the trees in the way.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ju ( on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 01:33 pm:

Just looked at the Billboard top ten RnB/Hip Hop. The top ten is split 50/50 between songs whose verse is rap and whose verse is singing. But then if you take into account the sung choruses on the raps and the rap bridges on the songs I guess things are still split 50/50 this week.

I have been watching this every week and usually the raps are more than half of the top ten. This can be an indicator of preference, Sudi.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Sudi Kamau ( on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 02:23 pm:


Billboard measures things like record sales and air-play, not dynamism. "Dynamic" is a glittering generality in this case. What does it mean? I suspect that the Billboard charts more reflect more of a universal succeptibility to heavily marketed pablum than a spontaneous reaction to musical "dynamism."

Chevrolets aren't "better engineered" because more people buy them than buy Rolls Royces; more people buy them because they are cheaper. You might argue that Chevrolets are at least as well engineered for their designed purpose as Rolls Royces are for theirs - Chevys are designed to be inexpensive mass-produced and mass-consumed vehicles.

Is Budweiser more "flavorful" than a decent import or micro-brewery beer because more six-packs of Bud get sold? I doubt that, even if the two beers were comparably priced and Bud still sold the most.

Is there power in the spoken word? Yes. Does rap sell? Obviously. Is Rap more dynamic than singing? Who knows - it depends upon what you mean by "dynamic," and what yardstick you use to measure it. I personally don't use Billboard and mass behavior to measure anything but the effect of things designed to influence record consumption and mass behavior. Determining what property is responsible for the effect is another matter altogether.

Again, I refer you to the "bandwagon" fallacy. (See also argumentum ad crumenam at )

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ralph ( on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 03:35 pm:

Very well put. Marketing really IS everything. Music included.

Top of pageBottom of page   By BankHouseDave ( on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 04:00 pm:

We used to laugh at LP covers that classified artists and music. 'File under female pop vocalist', 'file under jazz, Latin American'. If that was ludicrous ghettoised radio stations are more so, and condemning whole 'categories' of music beyond the pale. But there are sinister undertones in some marketing departments and there are people doing some stuff who a society who cares about its future and its young people shouldn't be giving the time of day.

It's a product of a wide ranging materialism that comes of making physical science and 'no responsibility' cults like genetics the new religion that kids will be suckered into thinking all there is is possession; that sex gets more respect than fellow feeling and love.

The worst thing about this is that Motown, Philly and Stax opened the world to Funk, Funk begat disco, disco begat Giorgio Moroder and people who did it by themselves (polite term). Once you got rid of grown up musicians, you got all sorts of people on a power trip.

Of course, rap has a long history, but the version of it that we have (in the main - I'm not generalising for everyone who does it) now is a kind of subculture propaganda that is the antithesis to the spiritual peace and love thing that went hand in hand with the last days of the 60s.

The young schoolgirls in our south coast English town idolise some pretty dense and humourless characters who shout abuse at them on CD stage and screen while continually checking if they still have any private parts. These sweet young things (the schoolgirls, as opposed to the So Solid In The Head Crew) screech 'bitch' and other mostly inaccurate things at each other in the street.

There are good artists in every genre. There are also people who don't even know they don't know what they're talking about. Once upon a time, we taught our children to know better. It's not easy for a 60s underground head type person such as myself to wonder if it wasn't while we still had some religion around here....

Top of pageBottom of page   By A.R. ( on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 06:12 pm:

How much longer can we tolerate records glorifying 24 inch rims, sexual prowess,
booties, hoes, bitches, pimps, whips(cars) Cristal, weed, cocaine, penitentiary life, keeping it real, keep what real, ignorance??
Contrary to opinion, rap as we know it is on a DECLINE, a BIG decline.

Also, there is no longevity to the eventual monetary gain from a rap record.
Its all about the here and now.
No one wil remake your songs later down the line.
If you are lucky enough to retain(and get paid for) your publishing, you BETTER invest and/or put away money for that"rainy day" , as that rainy day is soon.VERY SOON.

"any takers for a used Bentley or Escalade,gotta pay the rent"!-------the anonymous rapper--'04
keepin it real, yo!

Top of pageBottom of page   By Juicefree20 ( on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 06:42 pm:

Hi Sudi. As far as Rap is concerned, Funk & Soul paved the way for Rap. In the beginning, Disco had songs from folks such as George McCrae, KC & The Sunshine Band, The Trammps, First Choice. Once Disco became "Mainstream" due to a large dose of "Saturday Night Fever", it was all over. The images that that movie portrayed was not the Disco that we Blacks grew up with. We didn't wear feathers & you could be sure that no one was clearing a dancefloor so some guy could have the run of the floor. There were just too many good dancers for that. I don't know where they did their research, believe me when I tell you, that wasn't how it went down in the hood.

Rap always leaned toward the funk & soul basslines. Mainstream Disco was far removed from that with it's metronomic 4/4 beat & its high energy Eurodisco beat. I could delve further into the reasons that Disco was not a foundation of Rap. Let's just say that once the mainstream caught on to Disco, it had become a parody of itself. Which bought us such silly shows as Dance Fever, with it's BS costumes, lame music & even lamer dancers. Once that show was considered to be cool by the mainstream, it was all over for Disco. It was officially a joke by many of us.

I won't even get into the overtones of groups like Macho or The Village People, which were a inside joke for those in the know. Regular folks honestly thought that the YMCA was a place where we used to play Basketball after school. Little did we know about the other side & what the record was really implying. I won't go too deep into the production that was primarily done by gay DJs & producers with an emphasis on creating Diva & beats that even a clod could dance to.

The production was the thing & the producer was the star: Jacques Morali, Patrick Cowley, Jacques Fred Petrus, Georgio Moroder, et al became the stars & invariably, studio musicians & singers became "groups". Often, the members were faceless & interchangable. Those producers & DJs produced from a female sensibility & create many Disco Divas such as Gloria Gaynor, Carol Douglas & yes, even Sylvester.

There was a funkier side of Disco: GQ, Chic, Cheryl Lynn, Grey & Hanks, LTD, Kool & The Gang, Kleeer, Kraftwerk, The O'Jays, The Trammps & countless others. Those songs helped give Rap it's edge & identification in its infancy, not Disco. The R&B/Funk side of Disco was gritty & raw. The mainstream Disco was extremely watered down & was so far removed from Funk & Soul that it was laughable. I wasn't there for the birth of Motown, I was there for the Disco experience. It was great & a lot of fun while it lasted. That was the end of the carefree days, we all know what happened in the 80s.


Top of pageBottom of page   By Juicefree20 ( on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 06:45 pm:

I'm still waiting for the supporters to explain the need for the violent, mysogenistic, negative lyrics. I'm still waiting for the supporters to explain why in the hell, these guys are killing each other over music. I'm still waiting for the supporters to explain the need for the half naked video vixens & the stunting that appears in the videos. I still haven't heard an explanation for that.
The silence is deafening!


Top of pageBottom of page   By ErikT.O. ( on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 07:18 pm:

Hi Juicefree. The story for Saturday Night Fever was adapted from a story that appeared in the New Yorker or some other high profile magazine. The author's name like so many others escapes me right now, but he was signed on by Robert Stigwood (Bee Gees manager, RSO Recs & other music biz interests) to turn his magazine story into the movie. Years later the same author admitted he'd made up most of his 'research', but the scene fell into that art-imitates-life-imitating-art-imitating-life-cycle. Sort of like the Godfather movie which was apparently really popular among 'wiseguys' even though the romantic portrayal of the mafia as being some sort of benevolant society middling in olive oil and gambling instead of extorting people and selling drugs was out to lunch.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Eli ( on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 08:27 pm:

Im with you 100 million percent my brother.

Ill be in NYC this weekend so maybe us NYC ers can do lunch, eh?

Top of pageBottom of page   By Richard Felstead ( on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 08:57 pm:

Juice, the silence is not deafening. In fact, it's saying more than words can ever say. :-))

And Isaiah, I agree with you 100%.
Toasting as the Jamaican's called it, has been around for a very long time.

It went out on the road,via primitive roadshows with the rudeboys and changed the way Jamaica heard new music for the first time.

Are we agreeing on something?. :-)))))

Top of pageBottom of page   By Juicefree20 ( on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 09:46 pm:

Bobby, that's cool. I get off from work at 4. I'll send you the number. Peace!!!

Richard, I'd have to agree with you 1,000 percent. I've only asked the question 3 times, with no response. I love Rap, but, I'm not an apologist for it. One thing that I can say: I never had to feel ashamed of our classic Soul music. I never heard The Intruders threaten to kill The Four Tops. Smokey never called a woman a bitch. Finally, I never heard Gladys Knight tell anyone to suck her d***.



Top of pageBottom of page   By Sudi Kamau ( on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 11:14 pm:

The following obviously reflects my bias:

I agree with those who say that people turned to Rap partly out of frustration with Disco. Ironically though, Disco is what got people used to not hearing things that Funk and Soul had, that Rappers didn't bother with.

The thing I immediately rejected in Rap was the mechanical drum track. That might have been a problem to others too, before Disco. But after Disco and the pounding quarter notes in march tempo that even the squarest guy on the dance floor could keep up with, the flat, mechanical drum tracks of Rap were quite funky to a great many people.

Disco so reduced music to functional music that the subliminal role of say a Jamerson was no longer necessary. As long as the 4/4 ground beat was pounded out ad nauseum, and there was something boomy in the low end and something tingly in the high end of the hi-tech stereo speakers, people got used to it. Disco had rendered instrumental performances so sterile that nobody but the people like me (who'd always been looking past the dancing suits to see what the band was doing) missed them when the Rappers went for band-in-a-can.

In Disco, the producer rendered up product for the DJ to deliver to the consuming masses. It paved the way for the who holler fast and play the radio to become the star. The traditions from which Rap, and Rap itself pre-dated Disco, but Disco provided the mechanism by which Rap would find a broader audience.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Juicefree20 ( on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 03:08 am:

Being from New York, where it all started. It wasn't Disco that provided Rap with a broader audience. Radio wouldn't touch Rap in the beginning, Rappers Delight notwithstanding. Radio treated both Fatback Bands King Tim III (which was out months before Sugarhill) as though they were novelties, much like Napoleans They're Coming To Take Me Away. Radio didn't regard Rap as the overwhelming wave that it became.

It was specialty shows such as The Awesome Two, The Worlds Famous Supreme Tea, Red Alert & especially, Mr Magic, that helped propel Rap into the mainstream. They were the ones who had their ears to the street, while most of us were saying that Rap wouldn't last, it was a fad. Some fad huh? Then Ralph McDaniels came along with Video Music Box & shows like New York Hot Tracks with Darnell Williams & Debbie Morgan (from the soap opera All My Children)gave Rap even more exposure.

Suddenly, Teena Marie, Blondie & Stevie Wonder Rapped on their own songs. Now when a Rock icon like Debbie Harry raps on a song & talks about Rap icons such as Flash & Fab Five Freddy; when a Soul legend like Stevie Wonder RAPS, people were bound to pay attention. And they did.

The two biggest factors that put Rap squarely on the map was Run-DMC & Jam Master Jay, being played on MTV. Along with the first White Rap stars The Beastie Boys. This music was the rebellious music from the streets, a far cry from Disco, which had been whitewashed for mainstream comsumption. Once Rap hit MTV, it became mainstream.

Suddenly, little white kids were rapping, started wearing the styles of the Rappers. Young white teenagers began calling themselves "Wiggers" & started emulating the lifestyle of the Rap videos. They now decided to "keep it real". Rap had hit Middle America, Kansas, Iowa & suddenly, White kids was buying Rap music in much greater numbers than Black kids were. Once that happened, baby, there was no turning back.

That phenomena, not Disco, is what brought Rap to the mainstream. Obscure funk grooves, B-Sides, anything funky was the heart & soul of Rap. Another turning point was Afrika Bambaataa & The Soul Sonic Force & their classic Planet Rock. The interpolation of Kraftwerks electronic funk jams, Planet Rock & Numbers, took Rap to yet another level. The marriage of synths, drum machines & samplers was yet another innovation that made music making accessible to anyone with ideas & enough money to afford a SP1200 to make music. Up to that point, Rap music was still being made with live musicians. Being able to make music without having to be proficient at an instrument, created thousands of wanna be producers. This made Rap very accessible to many & that also helped Rap to explode.


Top of pageBottom of page   By Isaiah ( on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 07:22 am:

Juice, that was a great analysis of what happened!1!(smile!) That's the history 101 411 right there, and nothing further need be said... As Marv Albert would say, "Yesssssss!"

Sudi Kamau, I dig your writing, and your frustration with Rap as a musician, but Black Music has always been about movement, not the heavy cerebral thing, particularly, some musicians seem to believe it to be... That is the reason why Jazz lost favor with the masses during the BeBop era... It ceased to make people wanna groove, wanna move... Musicians seemed to be making music for themselves, and got upset when the public said, "ok, y'all do ya thing, we're going cross town to dance with Louis and Wynonie!"
That element explains why the dumbed-down, incessant beat of Rap makes it ovah with some folks... People simply wanna dance, and any simple ground beat, as we know, is enough to inspire movement...

Frankly, I have preached so much to my younger friends about the beauty that was R&B instrumentals that they have now discarded any notion that Rap is music at all... I have said at this board that Rap is not music, but spoken word mixed over a music track - any music track. So Sudi, I am not in disagreement with your frustration over the lack of musical innovation and variety being a Jazz/Afro-Cuban Jazz lover and enthusiast, as well as a lover of R&B, and World Music, generally... My problem with this thread is that Shauntrelle asked us old heads a question, and rather than expounding on the greater glories of the music we love, and contrasting it with the music he digs, we jumped all over him, and told him, essentially, to go find a Rap board so he could go preach to his choir... I think that attitude is what has the young folks in unremitting rebellion against everything older folks say... I mean why should they listen to anything we say if everything we say sounds like the same old critique they've heard before???

My thinking is that this division between the old and the new can be attacked in more innovative ways, and one of those ways is to seek to influence younger people to explore the music we have loved all of these years, not tell them, essentially, "get away kid, ya botha me!", when they ask a tough question... We should be encouraging of a Teena Marie for hooking up with the young people, but we criticize her in an underhanded spiel against that "Rap Label..." That Rap Label is employing her services like any other label, but because the label is run by young rap producers, there's something inherently evil in that... That is ridiculous... We should encourage this union of older and younger artists with the hope that the old will rub off on the new...

And Juice, your questions about why there is so much violence and misogyny/misandry in Rap could be applied to the sometimes sordid world of R&B as well... I brought up Little Willie John, Jackie Wilson, Sam Cooke, and you can throw King Curtis, and the gospel guy Jimmy Outler, who was stabbed to death back in the 60's, I believe... We can talk of the countless Blues legends who died alcoholics after singing of it's greater glories, as well... Eva presented us with Candi Staton's story, and her marriage to Clarence Carter earlier this week, and now we know why Clarence was singing about slippin' away(smile!) would that we older folks would cease this talking down to young people, and recognize that there's nothing new under the sun, it's just more exposed now a days, more out in the open... Stop talking about the videos this kids are making as if the R&B artists of yore would never dare to do the same had they had access to the medium in 1970... I remember well those Ohio Players Skin Tight and Honey albums with the sisters eatin' honey up in their birthday suits... And ya know that Ike's whole persona would've played well on video if he had the access... Donna Summer on Video for Love to Love You Baby, would've been outlandish, too, folks... Come on off all this high falutin, ivory tower rap - please!(smile!)


Top of pageBottom of page   By Ju ( on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 02:49 pm:

Singing is like hitting a snare with a brush. Rapping is like hitting a snare with a drumstick. The drumstick makes the more dynamic and exciting sound and that's what the young record buyers are going for, the excitement.

I always liken Rap to the Blues but in this argument singing is like the Blues and Rap is like Rock and Roll. The Blues where fine until somebody sped it up and sung faster over it, then young folks dug Rock and Roll and pushed Blues into the background. Singing was fine until rapping came along, then today's young folks accepted this exciting form and put down their previous sung songs the same way youngsters put down their blues and stuff and picked up the Rhythm and Blues/Rock and Roll.

Music is not analogous to cars. People by Chevys and Don't buy Rolls because Rolls cost too much. All music basically costs the same so people are buying what they want. That was not a valid comparison that you made.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ju ( on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 02:50 pm:

The Blues were*

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ralph ( on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 03:21 pm:

There are times a brush can be much more dynamic than a stick. It's all in the delivery. Learn this and you will do well.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ralph ( on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 03:25 pm:

To illustrate: Years ago, Rare Earth drummer, Pete Rivera in a little battle of the drummers on stage. After trading licks with their sticks ( and it WAS awesome ) Peter picked up his brushes. What he did literally brought the house down. It's delivery son. Always know this.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Sudi Kamau ( on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 03:25 pm:

Good points, Juice and Isaiah.

I'm reacting largely to the "dumbed-down, incessant beat of Rap," and I always have. I find it sad that we have become the first generation or two of Africans who can't find the beat unless you pound out a back beat. Even in Funk, as prevalent as the back beat was, it wasn't absolutely necessary to pound it out unembellished in every song. People chopped up the groove, worked clave into drum patterns, and War did some very funky stuff (Cisco Kid for instance) without really using a prominent back beat at all.

The other thing I've always reacted to was the emphasis on "[b]eing able to make music without having to be proficient at an instrument" and the resultant romance attached to the producers and DJ's. Juice, you said your self that "this made Rap very accessible to many & that also helped Rap to explode."

As I said before, I have always viewed Disco as a conditioner of the public for Rap in these two areas. However, you guys force me to admit a certain amount of tunnel-vision born of resentment. Perhaps I've taken what I consider to be the most odious elements that Rap and Disco share and made a little universe out of them.

If I were talking to Jazz musicians, I might be preaching about the sins of overlooking the importance of accessibility and functionality in black music. I agree that musicians have often been too indulgent and neglected the communal aspect of the culture. But, if I were addressing the average fan/consumer, I'd be preaching that people need to expand their horizons and not be so addicted to ear candy and body music. There's more to life than that. The communal, functional and kinetic quality of African culture has not meant that it had to be dumb and jejune. In our history in this country, one could always get over by dumbing down the music in just the right way, but only recently has it become practically imperative. I think that both musician and audience have at times been very unfaithful to each other and we're all the poorer for it, whether we recognize it or not.

My sneering about Rap and Disco is most unfortunate because it obscured my original points that assuming that people who reject things that we ourselves embrace do so out of ignorance, and equating preference or popularity with objective proof are fallacies.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Juicefree20 ( on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 07:53 pm:

Sudi, the one thing that current Rap has taken away from us is INDIVIDUALITY. Most HipHop songs range anywhere from 84 to 102 Beats Per Minute. It's all on the same level. Aws a former DJ, we used to build & build & kicked up the music to another level of intensity. How can you accomplish that, when every damn song has the same tempo???You can't go "THERE" (higher tempo) because there's no "There" THERE (lower tempo). There's no ebb or flow, if you took away the rapping, or the vocals, it would be the same monotonous beat, at the same tempo ALL NIGHT LONG! Asisde from the short intros, I could pick up a bunch of recent Rap songs & mix with my eyes & ears closed. Back in the day, our dance song tempos ranged anywhere from 90 to 126 BPM. You could go anywhere that you wanted to go. It's an extremely rare case when you find a R&B, or Hip Hop song that tops out as high as 110 BPM. There's no middle ground, it's either all down tempo, or a quamtom leap to a tempo such as Hey Ya by Outkast. How do you go from Milk Shake to Hey Ya smoothly? You can't & the abrupt change is jarring. If you mixed like that back in the day, you'd have lost your crowd.

We used to dance, Hustle, freestyle, whatever. We brought our individual styles to our dances & that's how we got our reps. These days, everybodys dancing the same way, at the same pace. We as Blacks prided ourselves on being up on the latest dances & adding our own little twist to them. Have you ever been to a Hip Hop Reggae club lately. I went to a dance when the guys leaned against the wall, while the girls grinded against them. And that was on a DANCE SONG!!! Could you imagine how that woulkd have went over back in the day? Imagine if all of those Motown, Aretha, James, EW&F, Parliament & Stax classics, were all 100 BPMs. Would they have been as special as they are?

What's up Zeke? I was referring to the lyrical content of 98% of Hip Hop lyrics, not so much their personal lifestyles. We had a few naughty lyrics back then, no doubt. However, we weren't drowned in them. Hip Hops life blood seems to revolve around violence, mysogeny & things as such. Though we have had some bad boys in the Soul/Blues/R&B world, they pale in comparison to what's happening in todays wonderful world of Rap. The godfathers of Rap, the guys who have laid the foundation for todays "Stars", decry what's going on in Hip Hop. How many times have I heard Grandmaster Flash, cry tears over the death of another young Rapper killed over some dumb BS? How many have been shot, killed or maimed in the name of Hip Hop? No other musical genre has shown the kind of comtempt & hatred for one another, as Hip Hop does. Regarding the message, aside from a few Tupac, De La Soul, Poor Righteous Teachers, PE & Roots joints, how much of recent Hip Hop/R&B has any true meaningful message? How much of is full of self-hatred & negativity. The brothers who try to show any type of social awareness or consciousness, get shouted down as wack, soft & punk bitches. They also usually don't sell many records.

The foolishness of this mentality was illustrated by ODB, who had a picture of his Public Assistance ID on an LP!!!!What??? That was straight up foolish & I just can't relate. Our communities have enough real live gang banging, drug slinging, bling blinging, violence & murder as it is. I hate to see it glorified in song, with a killer beat & a James Brown sample. That's just not what our music represented in the past. Somewhere these brothers got it all twisted. I know that you hear the lyrics & there's something wrong when I hear 8 year old reciting their favorite rhymes,talking about smoking a n***ga & bagging some a**. This crap is filling these kids heads with some real self hatred BS.

We also know that nothing influences kids like other kids & peer pressure; no kid wants to be left out of the loop. We can tell them how wrong these lyrics are, but when they hear these lyrics, over & over, it becomes an acceptable way of thinking to them. That is dangerous to our future. When they think that the only solution to a dis is to smoke a ni**a, we, as a people are further endangered, as if we really need one more brick added to the load. Not only do we have to be on guard against the external adversaries, we now have to fear one another & that is both sad, as well a hazardous to ones health.

Think about it, these are their future "Golden Oldies". Imagine the year 2025, when they reminisce about their "classics". Can you imagine the joy they'll have when they start singing sweet love songs such as: Me & My Bitch, F**k Me, Suck My D**k, Gangster Bitch & the like. I mean, how you you explain the greatness of these songs to you Grandchildren? I'm glad that we have something more meaningful to reminisce about.

At its best, music inspires, changes thinking, informs & uplifts. In what way does R&B/Hip Hop inspire? What useful message does it impart to its listener? I can appreciate the clever use of a sample, a hot beat, a clever hook & lyrical style & performance. However, even though you can put Hersheys & whipped cream on dog shit & call it a banana split, it still ain't a banana split. It's simply well dressed shit with accoutrements & a cherry. Underneath, it's still rotten to the core & it stinks. They need to consider what they're putting out there. There are ears just soaking up all of this & getting caught up in the drama, trying to keep it real.

They want to call it art, I'll sum it up with the word of another great rapper, one of the originals: Don't give me no brocolli & call 'em collard greens. You know who I'm talking about :)


Top of pageBottom of page   By Isaiah ( on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 08:24 pm:

Juice, can't debate or dispute a thing you've written up above... There's not a note that rings untrue in what you, as well as, some of the other posters have registered on this thread... My issue is our approach in reaching these kids... I think we put them on the defensive with the litany of negatives we find in their music, their entertainment... That is why I am an advocate of some of the older artists working with the younger artists... I know their class and experience rubs off... The bottom line is that one draws the bee with a sweet frangrance, not vinegar... If we really want to reach some rapproachment with our children - we need to develop a different, more conscientious approach...


Top of pageBottom of page   By Juicefree20 ( on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 08:42 pm:

I understan your points Isaiah. I remember hearing about that Disco dreck when I was younger. You know how their music was always better than ours, how it had heart & meaning. Remember hearing those words? I do. I guess that we've become our parents, those unhip squares that just don't get it. Life's funny that way.

I happen to like Hip Hop, the beats are infectious & many use samples most ingeniously. I'm not talking about the wholesale jacking of a song, note for note. I'm talking about how Biggie took I Put A Spell On You & flipped it. That was creative. I'm talking about the sampling as done on De La Souls 3 Feet & Rising Lp, where they sampled so much & made all of it fit. Or Pete Rock & his creative sampling of just about all things obscure. In fact, I feel that Hip Hops use of sampling gave new exposure to artists who were either long forgotten or obscure. If some of these cats are getting royalties, their wallets have swollen a little, thanks to Hip Hop. I remember how Rick James felt about being sampled by Hammer. He was angry until he saw his royalty check.

I just want to see more balance in Hip Hop. I'd like for them to stop glorifying the negative aspects of our experience & star bigging up the positives. That's all that I want to see.


Top of pageBottom of page   By Sudi Kamau ( on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 01:19 am:

Juice, I've been thinking that the 84-102 bpm tempo range may be an application of hypnotists' techniques. I've read some things about hypnotists, tent revival preachers, etc. practicing a 40-70 bpm "voice-roll" technique that maximizes their chances of sending subjects or vulnerable audience memebers into an "alpha state," making them more susceptible to suggestion. I saw one site selling hypnotist training materials that consisted primarilly of a tape with a 45 bpm signal that the aspiring hypnotist could practice timing his inflection.

The 84-102 bpm tempo range puts the back beat in the 42-51 bpm range. The use of drum machines and click tracks increases the potential for masking behavior modification mechanisms as musical entertainment.

I don't know if that's what's going on, or if the hypnotic stuff even works, but I have my suspicions. In another example, marketing people kind of hem and haw about whether subliminal sexual embeds in advertising work, but commercials are lousy with them. So maybe the narrow tempo range is just an understood mechanism for reinforcing audience susceptibility to suggestion.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Juicefree20 ( on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 02:13 am:

Sudi, that's an interesting thought. In this day of Enemy Of The State & such, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised. The sad thing is that although I doubt this to be the case, given the amount of money Big Business spends on Psychologists to learn how to get into our heads & motivate us to purchase, you can't rule out the possibility.


Top of pageBottom of page   By Isaiah ( on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 07:56 am:

Sudi, I aint mad at'cha, and I aint laughin' at'cha either(smile!) I believe that this kind of thing is possible, though like Juice, I don't really think its necessary... But who knows what goes into the final mix, man(LOL!) I remember reading in the book, COINTELPRO, by Ward Churchill and Jim Vanderwahl, the F.B.I. memorandum which briefly stated the desire to move Black children toward emulating athletes and entertainers, rather than community activists... That was near 40 years ago, and it appears that effort was successful... However, without actual proof of the methods used, I wont put my foot in mouth attempting to prove such a claim... But, Sudi, I do dig where you're coming from(smile!)


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