By Bradburger (172.182.188.15 - 172.182.188.15) on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 02:10 am:

I was just wondering if anyone knows what the value of US Motown demo singles are? I know that the U.K demo's are usually worth more than the released versions and I assume it is true of the US versions as well.

The reason I ask is that My Dad has a US Motown double sided demo (as far as I'm aware all the U.K demos had different songs on both sides) of Tammi Terrell's 'Come On And See Me'. All though it's a bit worse for ware (as hopefully you can see from the pic) it still plays o.k.



Although he has a few U.K demos in his collection this is the only U.S released demo he has. I'm not to familiar with the US values of the various Hitsville labels singles and was wondering if double sided U.S Motown Demo's were common during the 60's?

Cheers

Paul

By Vickie (64.12.106.51 - 64.12.106.51) on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 03:39 am:

Oh man......

That's awesome...

Vickie

By Ian W (194.75.128.2 - 194.75.128.2) on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 07:02 am:

Hi Paul

It's nice to have a few demo copies but, often with these, you miss a great song on the other side. I have a demo of The Vows 'Buttered Popcorn' but as it's double-sided, you miss the really sought-after side. There are a couple where the regular 45 is worth more than the demo. Great record of Tammi's though!

By John Lester (213.1.131.177 - 213.1.131.177) on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 07:32 am:

What is nice about this is that it has the mOtOwn logo and not a plain MOTOWN name on it.

Great song too.........

Notice the FXI at the front of the DM reference

By hw (68.37.216.64 - 68.37.216.64) on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 01:04 pm:

Great piece. And, to clarify, this is a white-label promo single, not a 'demo.' They are worth something to someone who wants one, and condition generally makes the value go up or down. Demos - Motown producers' acetates spoken about on other threads - can be worth more depending on who's buying.

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228 - 68.32.101.228) on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 02:23 pm:

In general white label promo copies are much higher quality pressings than the "street" copies that were sold in stores. RCAs and Columbias especially were higher quality than today's very best "audiophile" pressings. I was utterly amazed at how good a vinyl pressing could be when I worked at a college station.

By Vickie (64.12.107.164 - 64.12.107.164) on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 07:33 pm:

For Harry or anyone that may know this..
Is there any chance that "Two Can Have A Party" was ever on a 45, demo or other? (Tammi's solo version) I have been told a wonderful story, but I need the proof that the 45 existed to make the story valid.
Vickie
"she is keeping me on my toes, that Tammi is"

By La Quan Eli (152.163.197.182 - 152.163.197.182) on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 07:55 pm:

Wow Vickie, The Ghostest With The Mostest!!

Just think, at least her name was not Laquisha Nay Nay!!

By Vickie (64.12.107.164 - 64.12.107.164) on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 07:57 pm:

LOL..you make me laugh Bobby..

Vickie

By 1ofdaguize (152.163.197.182 - 152.163.197.182) on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 08:03 pm:

Laughter is a good thing. It is said that it heals the savage forum member!!

By Bradburger (172.181.226.252 - 172.181.226.252) on Saturday, June 15, 2002 - 12:15 am:

Thanks for everybody's input. I knew that some experts would be able to answer my questions.

So it's a promo & not a demo. Never seeing a Motown Demo or Promo or whatever & not being familiar with U.S 45's I just assumed it was a demo like the U.K issues are refered to.

When I was first shown it I thought it may have an different mix/version on the other side but as far as I can remember it doesn't.

Harry, who would this Promo have been sent to? D.J's or record stores? Where there such things as U.S 45 Demo's and if so are these rarer than Promo's?

Btw what does the FXI prefix stand for?

Cheers

Paul

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228 - 68.32.101.228) on Saturday, June 15, 2002 - 12:42 am:

Promo copies are sent to radio stations and high-prodile club DJs. The purpose is to have them expose the recording to the public. Before CDs, these were generally high quality vinyl pressings.

A song demo is a recording meant to convince an artist or record label to do their own version of the song. An artist demo is intended to convince a clubowner or promoter to book the artist or a label to record the artist. These were typically acetates before cassettes became common.

By acooolcat (202.221.45.130 - 202.221.45.130) on Saturday, June 15, 2002 - 03:28 am:

Hi Bob,
How do you differenciate the quality of the vinyl?
Graham

By FrankM (62.188.120.29 - 62.188.120.29) on Saturday, June 15, 2002 - 08:30 am:

In Britain promo copies came with the legend "For Demonstration purposes only" or as it says on my copy of Kim Weston "I'm Still Loving You" TMG511 "DEMONSTRATION RECORD" "NOT FOR SALE" The concept of promoting a record would be too vulgar in the UK and pretty useless as there was only one pop music radio station Thus we tend to talk about demo copies. Usually a UK Tamla Motown "Demo" or Promo to you is worth twice the value of an issued copy. The UK demos usually do have the normal B side as the issue but it might not be the b side that was issued in the states.

FrankM

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Saturday, June 15, 2002 - 08:53 am:

Not soul-related, but here's a Decca (London) Advance Promotion 45 from 1965:



The EMI-released promo singles often had a large A on the plug side, just to ensure that the deejay didn't play the B-side by mistake!

By KeithC (195.93.49.173 - 195.93.49.173) on Saturday, June 15, 2002 - 09:51 am:

I am intrigued about Demo/Promo 45s and found all the info really interesting..But how did it work with Audition copies of white Motown label Albums ?..were they issued to work in the same way as singles ?

By hw (207.0.87.83 - 207.0.87.83) on Sunday, June 16, 2002 - 02:11 am:

Prefixes are letter codes previously explained in a thread I can no longer recall; they represented:

1st letter - Producer ('F' is Harvey Fuqua)
2nd letter - Recording Engineer ('X' was probably Tom Nixon)
3rd letter - Mastering Engineer... at that time, mastering was the word for 'mixing' (not sure what 'I' was)

By Dave Moore (193.165.251.231 - 193.165.251.231) on Sunday, June 16, 2002 - 09:13 am:

Hi All,

As a collector of Motown and associated US 'Promos' I can tell you that it is a completely haphazard set of labels!! When I collected the UK issued catalogue on promos it was pretty straightforward, nearly all the 6Ts 45s are issued on Red/White or Green/White double sided Promos. However, the US catalogue is a nightmare! It is possible to find the same song issued on a number of different design labels, different coloured labels, A and B Side, double A side, Single sided only!! A perfect example of this is:

Mary Wells - I'm so sorry - Motown 1011

It was issued on:

Pink Striped stock issue
White Striped promo
Blue Map stock issue
Blue Map promo
White Map promo
Plain White promo

I've asked a number of people and it would appear that Berry wasn't averse to shifting plants at short notice if he owed a few bucks or thought he could get a better deal.

Out of interest I now have about 300 of the US promos. This has taken me about 6 years up to now. It took me nearly 20 years to complete the UK catalogue so I reckon I'll be a while yet with the US one!

The Musicians Reunion planned by Millie next year is AWESOME. Any chance I can come with my camera. You won't know I'm there I promise. Coffey, Ashford, Wylie, Theodore, Terrano, Eli, Wingate, etc etc. It really is AWESOME for a Brit to comprehend!

Regards,

Dave

By Eli (152.163.195.189 - 152.163.195.189) on Sunday, June 16, 2002 - 10:45 am:

I am honoured to be the "token" Philly -dude
within a cast of all the people who I have admired all of these years!!
Can I bring my camera?????

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Sunday, June 16, 2002 - 01:53 pm:

I thnk at this gig, cameras will be mandantory.

By hw (68.37.216.64 - 68.37.216.64) on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 01:00 pm:

Dave - the lgacey of the Motown promos is fascinating and one we don't often think of. More, please.

It was often a similar situation on the commercial side. As some may know, when a Motown song was hot and in demand BG had to use a few different plants to keep a single in stock at the shops. That sometimes meant the different plants had different mixes of the song, and a single you may have bought in NY would have a different mix if you bought it in LA or New Orleans. Some stock copies of Gladys Knight & The Pips' "Grapevine" have echo, some don't, etc.; there are 2 different mixes of the Four Tops' "Same Old Song" (that track especially was rushed to market).

Anyone have any other stories or finds like that?

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228 - 68.32.101.228) on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 08:43 pm:

It was not unheard of for BG to not care for how a record sounded on the air so a new mix would be sent to the stations while the old mix was still being sold in the stores. I'm pretty sure that this happened with other labels too.

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228 - 68.32.101.228) on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 09:10 pm:

I don't know of ANY cases of Motown switching plants!

The way it generally seemed to work was that the initial batch of DJ and store copies was done by RCA because they could press and ship a massive quantity at one time. Assuming that the record was getting some airplay, this would be followed up by pressings from three regional independent plants. Occasionally other plants would be added when one of the regulars couldn't meet a deadline. In cases where there was no time to schedule a rush release with RCA, the first pressings would also come from the regional independent plants. I found out recently that Berry Gordy was a partner in two pressing plants here in Nashville and there were rumors during the '60s that he owned at least part of American Record Pressing in Owasso Michigan.

By John Lester (213.1.135.27 - 213.1.135.27) on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 10:23 pm:

Here are few different 45 mixes..

For example

Back In My Arms Again
Pucker Up Buttercup
Dont Mess With Bill
First I Look At the Purse
Some Things You Never Get Used To

By John Lester (213.1.135.27 - 213.1.135.27) on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 10:39 pm:

I missed the earlier notes on this one....

Two Can Have a Party on a 45.....are we talking about something official here cos I hope we are.
Vickie - it is NOT on an official 45 from a solo Tammi.

The I of FXI looks like it belongs to Harold Taylor....that same person also worked on "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You" for the Velvelettes

Ritchie - That London demo looks like one that I sold in the 1980's.....there were loads that came out of someone's attic - that someone used to work on Ready Steady Go. I recall the number range which was around 10070!!! The Poets was another one I sold..

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 10:42 pm:

John

Pretty close - my Bobby Fuller 45 came from the collection of Johnny Hamp, Head of LE in the sixties at Granada TV!

By hw (68.37.216.64 - 68.37.216.64) on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 12:32 am:

Bob - what you described re the pressing plants was what I meant, didn't mean to imply BG was switching around (if I did).

Here's another one that's different: The Contours' "SHAKE SHERRY," where the promo mix for radio stations is different than the one in the stores at the time.

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228 - 68.32.101.228) on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 06:04 pm:

Letter "I" would indeed have been Harold Taylor.

BG was obsessed with making truly great records. I understand there are cases where lines of a lead vocal were changed and of course there's the classic story of him completely rerecording "Shop Around" at a different tempo after hearing it on the air.

The way the industry works today is more like closing your eyes tightly, holding your nose and jumping in rather than consciously crafting a great listening experience.

The way BG operated was colossally expensive and Motown was probably not nearly as profitable as other labels. Still, I don't think Detroit could have become the recording center it became without Berry Gordy's obsession with making a great pop record no matter what the cost. It's easy to forget that Motown was almost the only label that successfully met the challenge of the Beatles for dominating airplay in 1965. That accomplishment put Detroit in the history books and has provided many of us with careers.

By Russ (213.122.93.238 - 213.122.93.238) on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 06:44 pm:

hello everyone,this is my 1st time in here and heaven to me(an avid Motown collector of 20+ years)Any way,i have heard that Brenda Holloway has over 150 unreleased tracks still in the vaults,can anyone shed any light on this? By the way what an awesome sight this is,i shall be returning on a regular basis.Keep up the good work.

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 06:50 pm:

Bob,
From what I understand from Harry Balk who lunches with Berry from time to time, one of the reasons Berry got out of the business was the prohibitive cost of producing and releasing a record. With his attention to detail, I'm sure his videos alone would have rivaled, in cost, the production of a Hollywood movie. You have to admire a guy like that.

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 06:51 pm:

Welcome to the forum Russ. Come as often as you like.

By FrankM (62.188.122.153 - 62.188.122.153) on Sunday, June 23, 2002 - 10:12 pm:

The way the industry works today is more like closing your eyes tightly, holding your nose and jumping in rather than consciously crafting a great listening experience.

If only it were Bob. In the UK CD singles are released alongside 12" vinyl singles with three mixes of the same song. The companies pay big money to name DJ's to remix the track and then decide which mix should be plugged. It's like the days of disco when certain producers were offered lots of money to do disco albums on artists who could ot get arrested during the disco boom. Nobody knows what's what.

FrankM

By reina_k (206.129.0.140 - 206.129.0.140) on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 06:19 pm:

I like this part of the website because I am in love with music. I think I want to tell every single person I know because they need to know about something, finally, on the Internet that's actually educational. I'M SO GLAD!!

By david, glasgow, scotland (62.252.128.5 - 62.252.128.5) on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 06:45 pm:

Hi Reina K.

Thanks for the compliment and welcome to the forum!

David

By john lester (213.1.134.85 - 213.1.134.85) on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 09:54 pm:

Dave F

At last you're brave enough to try!!!

By Dave Fleming (62.253.128.6 - 62.253.128.6) on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 04:21 pm:

I think i might of sussesd it,here go`es:-)

By Dave Fleming (62.253.128.6 - 62.253.128.6) on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 04:25 pm:

Nearly there just need to sort the size out now.
Cheers
Dave f......

By John Lester (213.122.201.39 - 213.122.201.39) on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 04:49 pm:

.....said the vicar to the actress!

By John Lester (213.1.135.252 - 213.1.135.252) on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 07:58 pm:

Cheers....Dave

I can read it in that style print....

What is interesting is that when Martin Koppel played it on Richard Searling's show some time back...the intro had a repeat of the opening backing vocals...at first I thought the stylus had jumped but I checked really closely and if it did, then it was uncannily spot on. If memory serves me right, that was the day I first heard that R&B mix of Tammi on Tears at The End Of a Love Affair..

Well done for that Dave.....you got there in the end......I enjoyed it..thank you.

What else you got in your bag of goodies?

By Dave Fleming (62.253.128.6 - 62.253.128.6) on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 08:49 pm:

John we could be here all month:-) try this 45 by the "Miracles"

Cheers
Dave f.....

By John Lester (213.1.137.99 - 213.1.137.99) on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 08:53 pm:

Dave

Was that the one called "My 45 Was Just A Mirage"

Harry - you missed this one off the recent "Away We a Go Go" two fer!

LOL

By Dave Fleming (62.253.128.6 - 62.253.128.6) on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 09:00 pm:

Here we go John:-)

Cheers
Dave f...

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 09:10 pm:

Dave,
You're getting pretty good at that pal.

By Dave Fleming (62.253.128.6 - 62.253.128.6) on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 09:25 pm:

Thanks Ralph,i`ve only just got this scanner,i`ts like a kid with a new toy:-),here`s one by the
"Monitors"

Cheers
Dave f...

By Eric Chase (24.160.76.199 - 24.160.76.199) on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 - 04:54 am:

Russ! I've been lookin' for you, man...I heard Ron (Sean Conrad) Copeland is in TV in Cali somewhere, but I don't have an email addy. Need yours too! What a cool site this is...as a deejay who simply played all the hits you mixed, I'm amazed at my lack of knowledge. I still do an air shift in Houston, but wife wants me to put her back where I found her (SF) so we'll see. Drop me a note if you get a chance. "El Chasero"

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 - 01:48 pm:

Eric,
I'm Russ's brother. He does't come on all that often so I thought I should respond on his behalf. Ron is living in Santa Cruz and works at AT&T with Russ producing commercials.
I'm not sure of the phone # there but I'm sure you could get it from information.It is located in Scott's Valley.

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228 - 68.32.101.228) on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 - 03:25 pm:

FrankM,

I probably wasn't clear enough. I'm talking about a very different approach to doing multiple mixes.

Today's labels pay "name" remixers to do multiple versions in an effort to draw interest to the title or in some cases it is virtually a bribe to get the song played in clubs. These mixes are often radically different arrangements with only the vocals being kept.

Labels also pay different people to mix the original arrangement and pick the best. Even this isn't the same as what we did at Motown where the quality control department would supervise the mixing process and improve a single over the course of dozens of mixes and a period of weeks or in some cases months. The only other label I'm aware of that ever practiced this kind of a QC process was A&M.

Incidentally, our artists were never charged one dime for studio time or for any part of the QC process.

By Frankj (212.159.70.184 - 212.159.70.184) on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 - 10:26 am:

Also interesting are the stamps that the company pluggers would put on US copies for the benefit of DJs. I have an ABC demo of The Sapphires-Evil One which bears the legend " This side please. Bless you. Mattie "Humdinger" Singer".Personally I love these and radio station "property of" stamps but know a few collectors who would class this as WOL and don't dig it at all. I own the Tammi Terrell demo at the head of this thread in two different formats. The styrene map version as shown and a plain white vinyl one also.
Frankj

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 - 10:38 am:

Frankj

I guess that goes to show what strange values some collectors must have. I would have thought those unique little pieces of ephemera would add to a record's mystique. It's a little like saying "I have a nice original sketch by Pablo Picasso, but unfortunately it's ruined because he signed it."

By Frankj (212.159.70.184 - 212.159.70.184) on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 - 12:47 pm:

LOL Ritchie. Great analogy. Demo or issue I'm not usually fussed but to know your copy was probably broadcast at the time adds to the romance for me. I have an Irma Thomas-Take A Look/What Are You Trying To Do that states "Property OF WDIA Memphis" and dream it may have once been spun by Rufus Thomas and other jocks at this famous station. Lovely image and I wouldn't really want to know if it ain't so.
Frankj

By Davie G (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 - 07:43 pm:

Nice one Ritchie : - )

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228 - 68.32.101.228) on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 04:32 am:

The whole DJ thing was always interesting. I was a student station music director for a summer which was a REAL education.

First, white labels would usually be used so the records couldn't be returned to the label for credit.

(For the benefit of our friends in Europe, all records are effectively sold on consignment in the United States. The fact that European stores can't return recordings that don't sell is the main reason you pay so much more than we do for records.)

Often a higher grade of vinyl would be used for DJ copies, especially by the major labels.

The "A" side was always marked so that the number of stations adding the single would be as large as possible in order to get the highest possible chart position. B-sides were often intentionally lame so only the "right" side would be played. Sometimes there would be indecision between two songs so the DJ copies would have the same song on both sides and if it "stiffed," the label would "service" the stations with the "flip" side and have the stores change the bin labels.

Atlantic used to really mark up their "A" sides (including the Stax titles) with words such as "monster" "smash" or "killer."

Columbia and RCA were real strange. You'd get a huge stack of amazingly bad white label singles and one or two really different looking pressings that always turned out to be the hits. I always assumed the other stuff was sent to stations just so they could say they'd released it.

Anyhow the main thing to know is that the best quality was always the DJ copies.

By FrankM (212.250.156.11 - 212.250.156.11) on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 04:08 pm:

Bob,

I am sure during the sixties at least, a sale or return policy was operated in the UK. The reasons why we pay slightly more for records is complex. The US is a giant market compared to the UK therefore overheads due to mass production can cheaper in comparison. I prefer to think in the UK we are used to paying over the top for things and major companies operate pricing cartels so they do not compete on price. Then again unlike the US we still manufacture and sell singles. The customer will pay two or three pounds in its first week of release in a chart return shop. If it hits the chart the following week the price becomes £4. Singles are still released in CD/ vinyl and cassette altho the latter is being phased out. Rock singles can still be purchased in the seven inch format but the bulk of the vinyl issues are usually 12" dance music items.

With reference to lame B sides Phil Spector hated the idea of radio DJ's thinking they knew better than him as to what a hit was would put an instrumental jam on the B side. One of them Rat Race a righteous Brothers B side and written by Elmer bernstein ended up a favourite on the Northern soul scene.

By Greg (192.147.58.6 - 192.147.58.6) on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 06:25 pm:

That's funny, the flip side of my copy of "Rat Race" is another instrumental ("Green Onions") and both sides are credited to the backing BAND and not the Righteous Brothers, per se. Did Rat Race also come out with a vocal A-side?

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 06:50 pm:

Just to nit-pick, the Righteous Brothers' instrumentals were post-Spector recordings for Verve, and produced by Bill Medley. I used to have the Rat Race/Green Onions 45 too. I supect they might have been album-fillers!

And Phil Spector's instrumental B-sides (designed to be of no interest to any average pop fan or DJ) had in-joke names, often referring to his regular musicians, such as:

HARRY (FROM WEST VA) AND MILT
TEDESCO AND PITMAN
NINO AND SONNY (BIG TROUBLE)
HARRY AND MILT MEET HAL B

By Flynny (213.122.202.157 - 213.122.202.157) on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 11:41 am:

I've always wondered that too, Greg, so asked the Righteous Bros fan club site for possible info...no one had ever heard of a vocal take existing by the boys :-(

By FrankM (62.188.142.245 - 62.188.142.245) on Sunday, August 11, 2002 - 04:53 pm:

Greg,

My copy of rat race surfaced in the seventies in the UK on the Phil Spector international label 2010 022 as the B side to You've lost That Loving Feeling. Rat race according to this single was produced by Bill Medley. I've got the original UK London issue of the a side can't recall the B side off hand.

Tommy Tedesco was a guitarist as was Nino Tempo
Sonny Bono was well he was Sonny and Hal B was Hal Blaine drummer and leader of the Wrecking Crew as the musicians became known. I'm taking a guess here bu Harry might be Harry Nillson.

I must check my Sonny and Cher sngles but Im sure Sonny carried the instrumental tradition on

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Sunday, August 11, 2002 - 05:26 pm:

Frank - I thought "Harry" could be Harold Battiste.